Data to Guide Us with Jonathan Varkul – Episode 54

On Data Leadership Lessons, we’re always trying to use data to improve who we are and what we do. This week’s guest spends his time taking this concept to the max! Approach this episode with an open mind and you might find exactly what you are looking for. Or maybe not what you are looking for, but exactly what you need.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/DyYBmTMFzyI

Your next business card will be a YouTube channel! – Learn more at https://algmin.com

Save 20% on your first order at the DATAVERSITY Training Center with promo code “AlgminDL” – https://training.dataversity.net/?utm_source=algmindl_res

About Jonathan Varkul:

Jonathan is a facilitator and coach who helps leaders and their teams effectively resolve morale, conflict and performance related issues. He has been leading and building teams since 1998 and coaching leaders and their teams since 2010. 

His approach as a coach and facilitator is both the result and part of his ongoing journey to answer the question: “Can our deeper selves serve a practical purpose in addressing complex business challenges, and if so, how?”

Website – https://www.jonathanvarkul.com/

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanvarkul/

Episode Transcript

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jonathan_varkul: What was really weird is that the actual team that I ran started to

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jonathan_varkul: actually work more effectively. Not less

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anthony_algmin: Welcome to the data leadership Lessons podcast. I’m your host, Anthony J.

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anthony_algmin: Algmin. Data is everywhere in our businesses, and it takes leadership to

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anthony_algmin: make the most of it. We bring you the people, stories and lessons to help

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anthony_algmin: you become a data leader. Our show is produced by Algund Business Media,

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anthony_algmin: where we make having your own video podcast as easy as joining a video call

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anthony_algmin: and sending an email at Algmin Business Media. The stage is yours today. On

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anthony_algmin: and sending an email at Algmin Business Media. The stage is yours today. On

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anthony_algmin: data leadership lessons, we welcome Jonathan Varkul, Jonathan is a coach and

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anthony_algmin: facilitator who helps leaders and teams move through next level challenges.

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anthony_algmin: He has been leading and building teams since nineteen ninety eight, and

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anthony_algmin: coaching leaders and their teams since twenty ten. Jonathan. welcome to the

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anthony_algmin: show

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jonathan_varkul: playing Anthony, nice to be here.

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anthony_algmin: so like we do with all our first time guests. Why’t you take a moment and

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anthony_algmin: just tell the audience a little bit about Uh, what you did in your career

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anthony_algmin: before you became a coach and and facilitator and how those experiences led

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anthony_algmin: you to doing what you do now?

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jonathan_varkul: K. great. so you know,

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jonathan_varkul: Did leading up to this involved a lot of work with data. Funnyly enough,

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jonathan_varkul: not in a typical sense. I mean my first five years out of university. I was

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jonathan_varkul: a C. P. A and I worked with Eston, young as an accountant and an auditor.

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jonathan_varkul: Lots of data. not to work there. Fairly basic. Um realized it wasn’t the

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jonathan_varkul: thing I wanted to do, and I did what a lot of Um. Cp. asier do as you

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jonathan_varkul: qualify, and then you ▁quit to go in and figure out what the next thing is

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jonathan_varkul: you want to do, And Um. I got involved with Um. technology. At that time I

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jonathan_varkul: implementing e r P. Enterprise Requirement planning systems, Um,

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jonathan_varkul: Pre two thousand, So this was when the Y two K business was really hot and

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jonathan_varkul: everyone was Uh, scared that their systems were going to crash and wanted

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jonathan_varkul: to replace all the desperate systems and put in integrated Um systems with

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jonathan_varkul: a centralized database. And Um. My role was to kind of go in and help make

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jonathan_varkul: that happen. Um. fun enough. Obviously, um, I seem to be quite successful

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jonathan_varkul: at it, but Um, what I realized in hindsight was it was something other than

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jonathan_varkul: the technical capabilities that allowed me to be successful. Um did that

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jonathan_varkul: for a while, and Um, and then after that got involved in um, a start up

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jonathan_varkul: that was in the automotive sector in the wholesale, Um, part of automotive,

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jonathan_varkul: Um, in the used car section of wholesale, So this is basically that the

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jonathan_varkul: wholesale market for used vehicles is about three times a size of a new

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jonathan_varkul: vehicle.

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jonathan_varkul: The new vehicle industry only because I guess I used car Clls three times

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jonathan_varkul: once. It’s once it, Um, not no longer new so

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jonathan_varkul: to to a pretty large industry, and typically what used to happen is in that

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jonathan_varkul: in that industry inventory was sourced and sold through physical auctions

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jonathan_varkul: where dealers would have to go and buy their cars at physical auctions.

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jonathan_varkul: Captive finance companies would have to um. send the Th. their vehicles to

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jonathan_varkul: these physical auctions, and people had to congregate around physical

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jonathan_varkul: auctions to go by and sell inventory. So we were one of those companies

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jonathan_varkul: that brought that whole system on line across North America, And and it was

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jonathan_varkul: a fascinating journey because we were taking something that was incredibly

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jonathan_varkul: desperate. Lots of different perspectives on whether it was going to work

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jonathan_varkul: or not, and lots of resistance in the marketplace, because people had made

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jonathan_varkul: lots of money from actually not having a transparent industry, and Um got

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jonathan_varkul: involved in in in building that out, and in two thousand and about seven we

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jonathan_varkul: merged with our largest competitor, and I found myself sitting as a vice

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jonathan_varkul: president of operations in this organization and realizing that that’s not

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jonathan_varkul: really what I wanted to be doing, and so I am, gave some thought to what is

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jonathan_varkul: it that I wanted to do and. I realized that

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jonathan_varkul: up until then everything that I had done really involved people, and it

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jonathan_varkul: wasn’t really the technicalities of the work that that had led to my

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jonathan_varkul: success, but in much

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jonathan_varkul: but mo more about their relationship with their work that I was able to

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jonathan_varkul: help them with, and in a sense, Um offered them some clarity around

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jonathan_varkul: something that they were struggling with, and in that Um allowed us to

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jonathan_varkul: figure out next steps towards big challenges that we were having, Um, no

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jonathan_varkul: matter what it was.

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jonathan_varkul: So that’s what kind of led me into this journey of Um

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jonathan_varkul: of coaching Funnily enough, Um,

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jonathan_varkul: along the way through the accounting to the technology to the automotive.

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jonathan_varkul: Um. One of the interesting things is that I struggled a lot with, I would

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jonathan_varkul: say anxiety type issues that manifested themselves as Um. First, the an

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jonathan_varkul: inner year disorder so would have a tremendous amount of verdigo,

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jonathan_varkul: and was told that there wasn’t any anything that I could do about that, But

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jonathan_varkul: attacks of verdigo were were quite intense and they gave me a whole

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jonathan_varkul: different perspective on how to be in the world when I’m having a

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jonathan_varkul: verdigical attack, because there would last up to two days

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jonathan_varkul: and two days of verdigo is like basically a feeling of just that spinning

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jonathan_varkul: kind of falling feeling that you have non stop,

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jonathan_varkul: so total constant nausea for for a couple of days and. What what had to do

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jonathan_varkul: was find a way to put myself in a position where I wasn’t um, spinning or

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jonathan_varkul: falling and it brought my attention to my body in a way I’d never

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jonathan_varkul: brought my attention to my body before, So there was my like first kind of

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jonathan_varkul: foray into becoming almost biologically aware of myself in the context of

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jonathan_varkul: everything that I was doing, because I had to be so acutely aware of the

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jonathan_varkul: sensations of my body where my head was tolted, how i was how how i was

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jonathan_varkul: being relative to everything else that was. Going on,

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jonathan_varkul: Um,

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jonathan_varkul: subsequent to that years later, I ended up having these huge panic attacks

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jonathan_varkul: that had end up in in the emergency ward, and while, as in the emergency

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jonathan_varkul: ward every time I’d keep thinking I was having a heart attack And so I had

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jonathan_varkul: a work up of I can’t tell you how many different um,

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jonathan_varkul: um, uh, tests and um

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jonathan_varkul: scans done just to ascertain that there was absolutely nothing wrong with

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jonathan_varkul: me and after about a year and a half of this, my family physician said to

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jonathan_varkul: me, Look, I, you know I can, maybe. Give you something for the anxiety, but

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jonathan_varkul: there’s really nothing else we can do for you. You’re in perfectly good

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jonathan_varkul: But what that really made me, Um wonder, was, was there something that I

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jonathan_varkul: could do And I did did a little bit of research and I ended up going to

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jonathan_varkul: this traditional Chinese medicine guy

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jonathan_varkul: And you know I didn’t know anything about this, um, t, c, M, as they call

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jonathan_varkul: it, And when I went in, the first thing that he did was he checked my

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jonathan_varkul: pulse. He pushes down on your pulse on your wrist and he asked me to stick

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jonathan_varkul: my tongue out and he looked at it and he sat there and he looks at me and

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jonathan_varkul: hesistsed me. You have virtually no yin in your body and I looked at him

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jonathan_varkul: and I said Okay. So

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jonathan_varkul: big deal. like big whoop. What’s what’s that all about? And he said Me,

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jonathan_varkul: Know you. What you don’t understand is that there arere two types of

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jonathan_varkul: energies that work together to make a healthy individual. One of them says

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jonathan_varkul: Yin energy, and one of them says Y energy, And you have virtually no Y in

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jonathan_varkul: your body, And I said to him, Okay, so um, how’s that a problem? he said to

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jonathan_varkul: me. Well, you’re a little bit like picture, the sun burning out like

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jonathan_varkul: there’s no substance to it at the centre. All you see is a faint bit of

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jonathan_varkul: fire around the outside, but nothing to the center. He said, so, for

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jonathan_varkul: example, when I push down on your pulse, I get nothing back. There’s no

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jonathan_varkul: substance to youcause. Yin is the energy of substance, and yank’s this kind

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jonathan_varkul: of fiery burn off type of energy that you’re that you’re operating on And

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jonathan_varkul: so your system is very much out of whack. You’re not actually in tune with

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jonathan_varkul: anything

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jonathan_varkul: and you’re burning out really quickly. So I said him, Well that that that

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jonathan_varkul: sounds about right. Let’s kind of fix a situation. Um, and he said to me.

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jonathan_varkul: Well, the first thing you have to understand that is if you don’t do

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jonathan_varkul: anything about it, Um,

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jonathan_varkul: you will you will. Um,

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jonathan_varkul: you’ll really kind of start to keep having these anxiety attacks for a

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jonathan_varkul: while, but after a while, may, ten years from now, five years from now, I

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jonathan_varkul: don’t know. You’ll start to show signs of some kind of degenerative

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jonathan_varkul: disease, and the truth is if someone takes a blood test, there’s go to be

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jonathan_varkul: nothing that’s going to show this up in in any way. But what’ll start

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jonathan_varkul: happen is and I don’t know. He says to me if it’s going to be Parkinson’s

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jonathan_varkul: if it’s go to be something else, But you’ll start to have some kind of um

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jonathan_varkul: issue that’s going to show up of being very like you’re degenerating,

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jonathan_varkul: You’re literally falling apart. in some way neurology quickickly. So he got

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jonathan_varkul: me really scared, and I said to Myca. You got my attention. What do I need

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jonathan_varkul: to do? And he said me, Well, there’s a couple of things. First of all, we

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jonathan_varkul: have to make sure that your diet is very yin based. In other words, there’s

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jonathan_varkul: certain types of food that contain the energy of the substantian, um, um

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jonathan_varkul: energy. And then you have to remove stimulation from your life. that that

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jonathan_varkul: is overproducing the yang, And then the other thing is you have to start to

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jonathan_varkul: change the way youre relating in the world. I said. What do you mean? He

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jonathan_varkul: said. Well,

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jonathan_varkul: the way you relate in the world currently is very predominantly Y. You like

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jonathan_varkul: jump to attention really quick. You’re highly reactive when someone one

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jonathan_varkul: will bring your problem and you’re You’re addressing it. You quick to try

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jonathan_varkul: and address it and get it over as quick as possible. You try and march

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jonathan_varkul: through your to Duulus, ready quickly. You’re quick to jump to solutions,

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jonathan_varkul: and so that’s a very young oriented way of relating what happens if you

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jonathan_varkul: change the way you’re relating and you softened more into your experience,

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jonathan_varkul: and took your time with things and allowed things to almost emerge out of

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jonathan_varkul: what’s there, rather than trying to kind of quickly react and and do

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jonathan_varkul: things. So I thought well, this is really cool. Let me try and do that And

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jonathan_varkul: so I was running an operation that was insane. It. It was no wonder was

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jonathan_varkul: giving me anxiety. It was insane, Um, it. There were lots of moving parts

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jonathan_varkul: and lots of craziness. People were panicked a lot of the time, and we were

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jonathan_varkul: doing things for the first time many times,

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jonathan_varkul: and Um and I was having to kind of lead a group of about. I don’t know

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jonathan_varkul: sixty or seventy people in this kind of environment, and so what I desire

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jonathan_varkul: to do, and I guess the only reason I decided to do it was because

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jonathan_varkul: I guess

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jonathan_varkul: the idea of not dealing with my issue, the fear of getting some kind of

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jonathan_varkul: degenerative disease, The fear of like these panic attacks keep coming up,

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jonathan_varkul: and I really felt like I needed to do something about it, and so I started

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jonathan_varkul: to kind of almost tune more into my body and slow down, and literally in

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jonathan_varkul: the face of all this fear of oh. My God, I got get that done really

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jonathan_varkul: quickly, or I know I have to give the answer quickly. I really just allowed

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jonathan_varkul: things to start to happen more organically.

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anthony_algmin: H.

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jonathan_varkul: What was really weird is that the actual team that I ran started to

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jonathan_varkul: actually work more effectively. Not less

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jonathan_varkul: people started to find their own solutions. I didn’t have to tell him

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jonathan_varkul: everything. I didn’t have to the burden of having to figure things out and

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jonathan_varkul: quickly do things kind ofpated and I was able to allow things to emerge

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jonathan_varkul: more naturally, so that start to put me on this path of

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jonathan_varkul: being able to approach issues and challenges from a a different kind of

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jonathan_varkul: place. And that led to my exploration that, in turn, ▁ultimately led to the

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jonathan_varkul: work I do today in a way, certainly

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jonathan_varkul: in a lot of ways.

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anthony_algmin: that’s That’s an amazing story and I and I was just thinking it, and I

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anthony_algmin: couldn’t interrupt you because I wanted to hear more of the story, but I’m

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anthony_algmin: like man. I have bet so many people in the audience, Uh, for this show are

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anthony_algmin: like nodding their heads, and like, Yeah, that sounds like me or that’s I

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anthony_algmin: feel very y based today And it’s it’s like I, I appreciate, too that you

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anthony_algmin: entered that with some stepticism but also heard what. Uh, you know, the

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anthony_algmin: people said. What? What? what that um, Chinese medicine doctor had said is

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anthony_algmin: that you know it resonated with you and made sense. And that’s it’s actually

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anthony_algmin: with like data leadership lessons like it’s about coming into it with an

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anthony_algmin: open mind and learning and and trying to understand things in in ways that

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anthony_algmin: we don’t already understand. And so I can certainly think about times in my

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anthony_algmin: own career where you have that team where the pressure is very high and the

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anthony_algmin: the amount of things happening are are tremendous and people are stressed

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anthony_algmin: out, and there’s this this fear, uh, that kind of permeates throughout that

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anthony_algmin: that team,

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anthony_algmin: and it’s a difficult situation to manage, and its

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anthony_algmin: a a harmful one to the individuals in it. And so to hear that you had that

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anthony_algmin: kind of immediate

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anthony_algmin: reaction and it started to manifest not just only in your own health, but in

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anthony_algmin: the performance and the kind of morale of your team, I find that

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anthony_algmin: fascinating. Like. how did you even identify? How did you know who this is

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anthony_algmin: like? Did you have that moment? This is just weird now like this is strange

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anthony_algmin: that I’m seeing this. What? how? what was that like? Can you go it? a little

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anthony_algmin: more detail?

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jonathan_varkul: Sure, so I think it’s It’s a weird one. because once you start to get a

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jonathan_varkul: taste of something that actually starts to taste good, you just want to

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jonathan_varkul: keep getting more and more of it. So it’s almost like I was going in one

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jonathan_varkul: direction from this place of real fear that I needed

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jonathan_varkul: to to capture as much of of something or coral. it as quickly as possible

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jonathan_varkul: and get on to the next thing. And that’s kind of wasise the trajectory.

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jonathan_varkul: Once I’d had this issue arise where suddenly that wasn’t as relevant. It

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jonathan_varkul: kind of shifted my attention to. Well, maybe there’s some other piece of

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jonathan_varkul: this that’s more relevant to the equation. And so as I started to to

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jonathan_varkul: explore engaging with people, Um, slowing down,

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jonathan_varkul: Um,

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jonathan_varkul: taking the information in and giving people more time to consider things.

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jonathan_varkul: Um, I sorry to enjoy it more. So that was the first thing and I start to

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jonathan_varkul: experience an absence of any kind of real adverse repercussion to doing it,

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jonathan_varkul: which would have been the first kind of metric I’d measure. Is well, that

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jonathan_varkul: was nice, Jonathan That you explored that, But boy, we didn’t get anything

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jonathan_varkul: done while something really bad happened or you lost your job And the truth

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jonathan_varkul: is actually nothing adverse happened other than an increase in my level of

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jonathan_varkul: ease around the work. So that was the first thing that actually work became

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jonathan_varkul: easier.

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jonathan_varkul: Um, and so it kind of hooked me into wanting to kind of proceed in that. In

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jonathan_varkul: that way, um, the other thing that was really super cool is I became aware

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jonathan_varkul: of myself in ways I had never been aware before, so I could start to tell

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jonathan_varkul: like, Oh wow, there’s that impulse that I want to interrupt the person, or

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jonathan_varkul: Theres that impulse that I went to kind of jump in. Or there’s said, I

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jonathan_varkul: could start to feel agitative and constricting and tens, tense type, Um,

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jonathan_varkul: forces playing with my body while I was engaged with people, and that was

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jonathan_varkul: pretty trippy, because all of a sudden that became a bi bit of a game to

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jonathan_varkul: start to almost engage myself with the experience rather than just

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jonathan_varkul: intellectually with the problem, as it’s being described, whatever that is.

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jonathan_varkul: Um, and so yeah, it it, It started to almost feed me, fuel me, inspire me

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jonathan_varkul: to want to keep going, and the benefits started to to be apparent.

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anthony_algmin: C? And so it continued to build, but at some point it went from you doing

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anthony_algmin: this in your old career to eventually finding a new career in a new calling

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anthony_algmin: professionally entirely? Can you tell us about that journey? And and how did

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anthony_algmin: it? How did this? It seems like. Oh, everything is now right on the right

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anthony_algmin: track, But it wasn’t something else was going to happen. What was that

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anthony_algmin: process? How did that? Um, How did that lead you to to what you’ doing

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anthony_algmin: today?

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jonathan_varkul: so so

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jonathan_varkul: we, um,

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jonathan_varkul: we merged with our largest competitor, and and once that happened, Um, the

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jonathan_varkul: business as it was when it was organically building, things changed and

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jonathan_varkul: the,

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jonathan_varkul: and the feeling that I had gotten out of it wasn’t wasn’t the same anymore,

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jonathan_varkul: And I really felt like I needed a change, but I didn’t know what to do Now.

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jonathan_varkul: The funny thing is is, Um, I’d been mentored for many years by the

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jonathan_varkul: president of the company as we were building it, and one of the things

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jonathan_varkul: you’d always said to me is from a business perspective. The only thing that

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jonathan_varkul: really matters is value. You know. if you can see value somewhere then

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jonathan_varkul: that’s That’s the first starting point for building a business. Otherwise,

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jonathan_varkul: Why build it So you want to know that that there’s really v real value. And

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jonathan_varkul: so I thought, And and once you see it says that’s fine. The difficult thing

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jonathan_varkul: is going to be cultivating that value so that others can see it. Because at

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jonathan_varkul: first no one’s going to see it. And so cultivating value that you know is

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jonathan_varkul: there in the face of everybody else not seeing. it is the most difficult

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jonathan_varkul: part of building a business. But that’s really the process. so I thought to

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jonathan_varkul: myself. Well, that’s why. If I looked at myself as a business and thought

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jonathan_varkul: well, where’s my value? What is it that I can maybe cultivate over time,

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jonathan_varkul: and I only came up with one thing initially. when I started to see it. I

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jonathan_varkul: thought well, If I look back at everything I’d ever done. The only value I

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jonathan_varkul: really had was that when people kind of came into my space, they kind of

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jonathan_varkul: tended to leave it a little better than when they came in. I thought well,

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jonathan_varkul: that’s the only value I really bring. Why didnn’t I just kind of cultivate

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jonathan_varkul: that, Um, and see what happens? It’s for gototten good results. So far in

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jonathan_varkul: everything,

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jonathan_varkul: I’ve done what’ will happen if I just spend time with other people in in a

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jonathan_varkul: way that I’m learning how to to do that, Um,

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jonathan_varkul: at the at the stage In In in the game, This is back in two thousand and

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jonathan_varkul: nine. And so, I, um, I started to just do that. I started to engage with

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jonathan_varkul: different people. A you. I left where I was and I started just engage with

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jonathan_varkul: different folks, Um. And speak to them about their businesses about what

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jonathan_varkul: they were doing. Um talked to them about the fact that I was exploring.

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jonathan_varkul: This wasn’t quite sure if that was going to work. But do you know it was

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jonathan_varkul: just something I was exploring, and over time what started to happen was

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jonathan_varkul: people would get a sense that I could help them with something, either them

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jonathan_varkul: or the company that they were in, and the people that were reporting into

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jonathan_varkul: them were people that they knew, And slowly people would refer me to

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jonathan_varkul: someone who was having some kind of challenge or issue and they would

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jonathan_varkul: ask me to kind of spend time with them. Help them discuss it, help them

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jonathan_varkul: unpack it. And I was just in this experimental phase of seeing

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jonathan_varkul: what I could do to do that. And you know, looking back ten years now, maybe

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jonathan_varkul: more since two thousand and ten when I really started doing it since like

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jonathan_varkul: eleven years now, Um, man, I’m a very different person doing it now than I

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jonathan_varkul: was eleven years ago.

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jonathan_varkul: But

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jonathan_varkul: the the, The journey was Re. It was just a sense of like I want to find out

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jonathan_varkul: what what I’m either made of or what my potential is or capacity to do

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jonathan_varkul: this. And how cool would it be if I could do it? I just didn’t realize at

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jonathan_varkul: first how difficult it would be to get people to actually to say. Actually,

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jonathan_varkul: what you do is even relevant to me. Or I didn’t know how to articulate what

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jonathan_varkul: I did, Um in a way, and when I learnt after a little bit of time people

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jonathan_varkul: said Oh well, this thing you’re doing is really coaching. Um, it’s not like

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jonathan_varkul: I started out wanting to be a coach and said Well, I’d like to go get

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jonathan_varkul: certified as a coach. I was kind of a. I came in it from a very different

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jonathan_varkul: angle as this, this kind of almost raw need to to do what I’d been doing,

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jonathan_varkul: but in a bigger kind of way

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anthony_algmin: I can certainly appreciate that. and and I think a lot about

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anthony_algmin: that advice you you re around you creating a business. It’s about what is

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anthony_algmin: your value. What is the? what is the value that you can really add.

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anthony_algmin: And

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anthony_algmin: it is a very personal thing, And I find that some of the best businesses

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anthony_algmin: that are ever created come from a place where you’re not even worried about

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anthony_algmin: a business. You’re not thinking from a How do I make a business? You’ just

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anthony_algmin: thinking about how can I do something valuable for people and then seeing

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anthony_algmin: where that goes. And so

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anthony_algmin: I, I hear your story and it’s inspiring because I think there’s a lot of

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anthony_algmin: people out there that have a passion that they may not be pursuing because

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anthony_algmin: they can’t figure out how to create a business around it. And and to some

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anthony_algmin: extent I feel like that may be the wrong way to think about it up front is

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anthony_algmin: is first find a way to do it. find a way to help people find. In your case,

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anthony_algmin: how do you coach and how do you do something that you had this innate talent

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anthony_algmin: for and that you saw manifest in different places that you’d been in your

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anthony_algmin: career? How do you do more of that? That’s the thing that starts to make you

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anthony_algmin: happy, and then you can find a way over time to learn the things that you

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anthony_algmin: need to to turn it into a viable business, But I’m sure that there’s a lot

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anthony_algmin: of people out there that don’t necessarily even want to go ▁quit the day

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anthony_algmin: job, but they just want. To do something that they love for some percentage

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anthony_algmin: of their time in a way that can really impact people, And there’s that’s

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anthony_algmin: some. There’s something to be said for that as well.

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jonathan_varkul: hundred percent absolutely. And so what you? really? it seems like what you

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jonathan_varkul: are really describing. Is this this

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jonathan_varkul: almost

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jonathan_varkul: expansion into one’s way of being in the world? You you not just doing what

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jonathan_varkul: you doing, you’ trying to do a little more, or you expanding more of

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jonathan_varkul: yourself into the world You’re daring to to to be something more than what

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jonathan_varkul: what you’ve been at some point in time? And that doesn’t mean you have to

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jonathan_varkul: ▁quit your job to do that. It doesn’t mean anything other than to just

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jonathan_varkul: explore. and

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jonathan_varkul: you know, just just expand it a little further.

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anthony_algmin: Yeah, and and I think so, I wanted to start with that because to me that’s

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anthony_algmin: the most important thing, right like that’s the thing that should bring you

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anthony_algmin: to doing something. Is that that kind of calling and and not to to steal

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anthony_algmin: your term? But the the next level is really understanding, like there’s

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anthony_algmin: something more than what I’m doing and I need to find that I need to do it

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anthony_algmin: not to make more money, not to further my career necessarily, but to

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anthony_algmin: complete myself as a person or to become a little bit better of a person, or

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anthony_algmin: more, uh, complete person, um than than I am right now. I think that’s a a

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anthony_algmin: great motivator and so I think that Like so, I just wanted to be very clear

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anthony_algmin: that I think is the most important thing. However, I also want to talk about

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anthony_algmin: how you go from being in corporate America, You know, senior operational v P

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anthony_algmin: level role to saying Okay, it’s now time for a new chapter in my career and

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anthony_algmin: I’m going to go

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anthony_algmin: all in on myself as an entrepreneur And you do put yourself into a position

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anthony_algmin: where you have to create a business model around this. Can you talk about

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anthony_algmin: how you found

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anthony_algmin: what it is that you’ve you’ve done to create your business model even, and

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anthony_algmin: and maybe a little bit about what your business model actually is, and kind

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anthony_algmin: of how you found that, and how quickly you were able to to identify it and

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anthony_algmin: and get to something that would you’. last. I mean, ten years plus eleven

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anthony_algmin: years, Is is a an achievement for any entrepreneur to be able to do this.

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anthony_algmin: Can you tell us about some of that journey? Uh, that that you’ve had since

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anthony_algmin: leaving? kind of that corporate world?

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jonathan_varkul: Yeah, I’d say the the

355
00:24:21,000 –> 00:24:25,000
jonathan_varkul: weird thing is is what starts us on the road to where going isn’t

356
00:24:25,166 –> 00:24:31,291
jonathan_varkul: necesarily, the truth of anything. but it’s the tasty treat. that kind of

357
00:24:31,458 –> 00:24:34,666
jonathan_varkul: gets you started in that direction. and for me this,

358
00:24:36,833 –> 00:24:41,541
jonathan_varkul: there must be more. so was in my like early forties, I just maybe turned

359
00:24:41,708 –> 00:24:43,166
jonathan_varkul: forty or forty one At the time

360
00:24:44,208 –> 00:24:45,208
jonathan_varkul: I

361
00:24:45,791 –> 00:24:48,125
jonathan_varkul: remember thinking the rest of my life.

362
00:24:51,375 –> 00:24:54,041
jonathan_varkul: I remember feeling like I’m not standing on the top of the mountain at

363
00:24:54,125 –> 00:24:58,041
jonathan_varkul: forty. I feel like I’m on the top of a hill. I climbed this high. I’m

364
00:24:58,208 –> 00:25:02,125
jonathan_varkul: looking out and I could see the next forty years kind of like in front of

365
00:25:02,208 –> 00:25:07,791
jonathan_varkul: me. And well, if the next forty years end up being like this and I end up

366
00:25:07,875 –> 00:25:12,583
jonathan_varkul: feeling like the way I feel right now, Thatll be a problem because inasmuch

367
00:25:12,750 –> 00:25:15,708
jonathan_varkul: as it looks like I’ve achieved, I don’t feel like I’ve achieved anything.

368
00:25:16,500 –> 00:25:19,708
jonathan_varkul: The way I’m feeling doesn’t feel really good at all, Like there was

369
00:25:19,791 –> 00:25:24,208
jonathan_varkul: something about the way I felt that was driving me to kind of look for

370
00:25:24,291 –> 00:25:25,875
jonathan_varkul: something more and I don’t know what it is.

371
00:25:26,333 –> 00:25:31,708
jonathan_varkul: Um, and that was a real interesting starting point for me because it meant

372
00:25:31,875 –> 00:25:36,583
jonathan_varkul: this isn’t about finding a career or a job or a business, as much as its

373
00:25:36,750 –> 00:25:42,208
jonathan_varkul: more, finding myself in some ways and a deeper deeper level. And so there

374
00:25:42,333 –> 00:25:47,958
jonathan_varkul: was a bit of a Am an eye opener because all of a sudden everything was fair

375
00:25:48,208 –> 00:25:49,958
jonathan_varkul: game. in a sense Because

376
00:25:51,375 –> 00:25:57,166
jonathan_varkul: I, I started to find myself questioning everything. I. why, like literally

377
00:25:57,291 –> 00:26:04,500
jonathan_varkul: everything that I had almost built up, Am as a structure around my life. I

378
00:26:04,666 –> 00:26:08,291
jonathan_varkul: kind of start to dismantle a little bit because I needed to get to what was

379
00:26:08,333 –> 00:26:12,125
jonathan_varkul: underneath it. What’s the foundation to myself? If the foundation at the

380
00:26:12,125 –> 00:26:16,416
jonathan_varkul: bottom is is kind of giving off this reverberation of. I don’t feel really

381
00:26:16,583 –> 00:26:19,958
jonathan_varkul: good about this thing. Will Em me start to take things apart and see if I

382
00:26:20,041 –> 00:26:22,916
jonathan_varkul: take one piece out what’s happened while it’s still there. Let me take

383
00:26:23,083 –> 00:26:27,000
jonathan_varkul: another piece out while it’s still there. And so as um, I started to look

384
00:26:27,083 –> 00:26:32,916
jonathan_varkul: at my life and explore a little bit more. Um, First of all, I ended up with

385
00:26:33,166 –> 00:26:37,166
jonathan_varkul: no job for starters, because I didn’t want to work here, so I found myself

386
00:26:37,375 –> 00:26:41,250
jonathan_varkul: unemployed and as I started to explore this further, my marriage fell

387
00:26:41,291 –> 00:26:46,916
jonathan_varkul: apart, so I found myself without. um. Oh a wife, and we have two wonderful

388
00:26:47,166 –> 00:26:51,958
jonathan_varkul: boys, but at the end of the day our, our, our marriage fell apart. Um, I

389
00:26:52,125 –> 00:26:56,041
jonathan_varkul: found myself no longer owning this wonderful home that we we owned. I was

390
00:26:56,291 –> 00:27:01,083
jonathan_varkul: kind of by myself in this little rental place, sitting there, not having a

391
00:27:01,166 –> 00:27:04,583
jonathan_varkul: career. not really knowing what I wanted to do. It was almost like this,

392
00:27:04,750 –> 00:27:09,625
jonathan_varkul: tracking backwards into facing all my deepest fears, which was what had led

393
00:27:09,791 –> 00:27:13,541
jonathan_varkul: me to kind of travel outwards in the first place was his fear of failure.

394
00:27:13,708 –> 00:27:18,125
jonathan_varkul: And now I’m kind of facing failure at every s ingle step of the way, almost

395
00:27:18,333 –> 00:27:21,708
jonathan_varkul: back into really feeling it for the first time. And

396
00:27:23,541 –> 00:27:27,166
jonathan_varkul: so so the first starting point was while I need to kind of get

397
00:27:28,416 –> 00:27:32,583
jonathan_varkul: fulfilled or happy or find my way. But what it actually led me into was

398
00:27:32,916 –> 00:27:37,458
jonathan_varkul: this journey into a bit of a hellish um space for a while

399
00:27:37,708 –> 00:27:41,708
jonathan_varkul: or place for a while, which was facing all my demons and fears around.

400
00:27:42,833 –> 00:27:44,833
jonathan_varkul: What it is that I am

401
00:27:47,583 –> 00:27:48,583
jonathan_varkul: around

402
00:27:50,125 –> 00:27:53,875
jonathan_varkul: around my relationship with myself in the world. Now what was fascinating

403
00:27:54,041 –> 00:27:58,833
jonathan_varkul: is because I hadd all this time to do it. I got to sit on a couch for a

404
00:27:58,833 –> 00:28:02,833
jonathan_varkul: fair amount of time and actually experience what that was like because it’s

405
00:28:02,916 –> 00:28:05,875
jonathan_varkul: not an intellectual experience. I’m in sure, intellectually people can

406
00:28:05,958 –> 00:28:10,416
jonathan_varkul: think about you know it, lose your wife. you lose your, your, um, your your

407
00:28:10,500 –> 00:28:14,333
jonathan_varkul: house, you lose a job. You lose all these things, but the truth is is all

408
00:28:14,583 –> 00:28:18,750
jonathan_varkul: this experience of it actually, that’s happening, and then all the

409
00:28:18,833 –> 00:28:22,416
jonathan_varkul: narratives that I’m telling myself while this is all happening and I’m and

410
00:28:22,500 –> 00:28:26,291
jonathan_varkul: I’ve got nowhere else to be, so I can kind of watch this whole thing play

411
00:28:26,583 –> 00:28:31,166
jonathan_varkul: itself out and start to put the pieces of my how I relate in the world

412
00:28:31,708 –> 00:28:35,958
jonathan_varkul: together, and I start to be able to see that how my emotions are connected

413
00:28:36,125 –> 00:28:39,375
jonathan_varkul: to my thoughts, that’s connected to the sensations in my body and how all

414
00:28:39,458 –> 00:28:43,625
jonathan_varkul: the stuff fits together. And then what happened was I start to engage with

415
00:28:43,708 –> 00:28:47,875
jonathan_varkul: other people around in this coaching area and they start to describe things

416
00:28:48,208 –> 00:28:52,416
jonathan_varkul: to me, And while they describing it to me, I’m still very much embedded in

417
00:28:52,416 –> 00:28:56,500
jonathan_varkul: this connecting to myself physically. And so I’m starting to kind of almost

418
00:28:57,166 –> 00:29:01,250
jonathan_varkul: physically play with the information they’re giving me, relate to them and

419
00:29:01,458 –> 00:29:05,250
jonathan_varkul: explore in a very different kind of way Because it’s not like they’re

420
00:29:05,375 –> 00:29:08,125
jonathan_varkul: giving me an intellectual problem and I’m trying to help them solve it.

421
00:29:08,208 –> 00:29:11,791
jonathan_varkul: They’re giving an intellectual problem and I’m grappling to be here right

422
00:29:11,958 –> 00:29:16,750
jonathan_varkul: now just as a person, so I’m trying to integrate grappling to be here while

423
00:29:17,541 –> 00:29:21,958
jonathan_varkul: meeting Um them with what they’re going through And it was incredibly

424
00:29:22,041 –> 00:29:27,166
jonathan_varkul: informative in a way that you can’t quite describe to people, because my,

425
00:29:27,166 –> 00:29:30,833
jonathan_varkul: my brain, if I look back on it was trying to synthesize so much information

426
00:29:31,375 –> 00:29:33,791
jonathan_varkul: and integrated all into Um,

427
00:29:36,125 –> 00:29:41,166
jonathan_varkul: to relating in a different kind of way, and Ive found that Um, an

428
00:29:41,250 –> 00:29:46,333
jonathan_varkul: incredibly imst tortuous process, but it gave me insights and perspectives

429
00:29:46,666 –> 00:29:50,291
jonathan_varkul: on my condition. Under the general human condition, but certainly my

430
00:29:50,416 –> 00:29:55,291
jonathan_varkul: condition, and it led me to start to see if that was applicable to all

431
00:29:55,375 –> 00:29:58,125
jonathan_varkul: these other people that were bringing me all their issues, and I start to

432
00:29:58,208 –> 00:30:02,583
jonathan_varkul: see commonalities and all of a sudden a body of work started to emerge in

433
00:30:02,666 –> 00:30:06,500
jonathan_varkul: the context of. While I can see the patterns to when people are up against

434
00:30:06,666 –> 00:30:10,500
jonathan_varkul: it and are being challenged, it’s the same stuff people were just scared to

435
00:30:10,750 –> 00:30:14,916
jonathan_varkul: face ourselves in the context of a challenge or next level up challenges.

436
00:30:15,250 –> 00:30:18,416
jonathan_varkul: What they bring up is this huge fear of

437
00:30:19,541 –> 00:30:24,125
jonathan_varkul: I’m not going to be good enough to to do that. I’m going to have to really

438
00:30:25,000 –> 00:30:31,375
jonathan_varkul: push harder or I. It’s almost like this, this orientation to, to, um,

439
00:30:32,750 –> 00:30:36,500
jonathan_varkul: to, to get away from ourselves in order to achieve something. and then when

440
00:30:36,500 –> 00:30:39,875
jonathan_varkul: we achieve it we can then go. I can now can bring that in and I can add it

441
00:30:40,041 –> 00:30:44,041
jonathan_varkul: to my badges of honor in a way that could kind of make me feel better or

442
00:30:44,041 –> 00:30:45,041
jonathan_varkul: good about things.

443
00:30:45,625 –> 00:30:50,750
jonathan_varkul: but being able to go into a challenge. That’s really when we’re up against

444
00:30:50,916 –> 00:30:56,416
jonathan_varkul: it and expand our thinking in a way where we’re settling into the

445
00:30:56,583 –> 00:30:59,541
jonathan_varkul: experience to see what else is here to kind of in a more holistic complete

446
00:30:59,791 –> 00:31:03,000
jonathan_varkul: way address a biggest problem. At a strategic level, there was something

447
00:31:03,250 –> 00:31:06,750
jonathan_varkul: people really struggled with and I start to become more adept at helping

448
00:31:06,833 –> 00:31:10,333
jonathan_varkul: them do that. Just because by virtue, the fact that I’d gone through this

449
00:31:10,333 –> 00:31:11,333
jonathan_varkul: huge struggle,

450
00:31:12,250 –> 00:31:13,250
anthony_algmin: Yeah,

451
00:31:13,833 –> 00:31:18,541
anthony_algmin: and so I think this. This brings us to kind of what had originally brought

452
00:31:18,708 –> 00:31:22,250
anthony_algmin: us together to do this show, which was the

453
00:31:23,916 –> 00:31:28,875
anthony_algmin: You have a a significant amount of data experience in what you do, and you

454
00:31:29,125 –> 00:31:33,750
anthony_algmin: look at how data plays a role in in what people are doing. Can you talk

455
00:31:33,916 –> 00:31:38,375
anthony_algmin: about some of the things that tie data into the work that you do as a coach

456
00:31:40,291 –> 00:31:44,541
jonathan_varkul: so so everyone comes to me with a problem framed up in a particular kind of

457
00:31:44,541 –> 00:31:45,541
jonathan_varkul: way.

458
00:31:46,416 –> 00:31:48,916
jonathan_varkul: That doesn’t matter what it is. it may makes no difference.

459
00:31:49,958 –> 00:31:54,208
jonathan_varkul: And And and that problem is framed up with data. The thing is, is, most of

460
00:31:54,291 –> 00:31:59,166
jonathan_varkul: what people don’t realize is that there are two pieces to the information

461
00:31:59,458 –> 00:32:03,000
jonathan_varkul: that they’re giving me. There’s you’d call it the raar data that they’re

462
00:32:03,166 –> 00:32:07,958
jonathan_varkul: giving me, But there’s also what I’d call this a whole lot of charge or or

463
00:32:09,291 –> 00:32:13,708
jonathan_varkul: biological charge information That’s coming with that. And when you mix

464
00:32:13,875 –> 00:32:17,625
jonathan_varkul: that biological charge information along with the raw data, you create a

465
00:32:17,708 –> 00:32:21,000
jonathan_varkul: fair amount of noise and it’s hard to passe out what’s actually relevant

466
00:32:21,166 –> 00:32:26,291
jonathan_varkul: and what’s not, And so most of the work I do is in

467
00:32:27,791 –> 00:32:32,208
jonathan_varkul: is in being with the information that they’re giving me to pass out the

468
00:32:32,333 –> 00:32:37,083
jonathan_varkul: charge from the relevant data in that particular situation so that people

469
00:32:37,291 –> 00:32:42,666
jonathan_varkul: can actually find the truth of the situation. Because when we’ um, when

470
00:32:42,833 –> 00:32:48,291
jonathan_varkul: we’re supercharged by something, or or strugg, struggling with it, our our

471
00:32:48,750 –> 00:32:50,750
jonathan_varkul: systems are going to be um.

472
00:32:53,000 –> 00:32:57,458
jonathan_varkul: Are going to be Um, operating in a way that? Um.

473
00:33:01,708 –> 00:33:03,083
jonathan_varkul: it denies reality.

474
00:33:04,125 –> 00:33:08,500
jonathan_varkul: So what happens is is when people are up against it with the challenge. The

475
00:33:08,583 –> 00:33:12,500
jonathan_varkul: way they are viewing things is very narrow and so all the things that are

476
00:33:12,666 –> 00:33:16,833
jonathan_varkul: actually relevant can’t be seen, because the emotional charge that they’re

477
00:33:17,000 –> 00:33:20,666
jonathan_varkul: experiencing is kind of forcing them to look at something in a very narrow

478
00:33:20,750 –> 00:33:26,125
jonathan_varkul: fashion. And so the the work I do is really engaging with people to examine

479
00:33:26,291 –> 00:33:31,458
jonathan_varkul: the information that’s there in a way that makes it tolerable for them to

480
00:33:31,625 –> 00:33:34,333
jonathan_varkul: view things beyond where they’re at. Um.

481
00:33:35,083 –> 00:33:36,083
jonathan_varkul: So

482
00:33:37,000 –> 00:33:42,500
jonathan_varkul: so it could be as simple as um. someone having an issue around delegating.

483
00:33:43,083 –> 00:33:46,208
jonathan_varkul: I mean it’s not like they haven’t been told twenty times they should

484
00:33:46,291 –> 00:33:50,916
jonathan_varkul: delegate. It’s not like they. Um. they don’t know they should delegate. Um,

485
00:33:51,291 –> 00:33:54,833
jonathan_varkul: but there’s something that is stopping them from doing it. Chances ared

486
00:33:55,000 –> 00:33:58,416
jonathan_varkul: they’ve scared to, but that’s not something that that comes up and and and

487
00:33:58,583 –> 00:34:01,875
jonathan_varkul: even if they’re scared to, what does that mean for them in terms of Um,

488
00:34:02,333 –> 00:34:04,916
jonathan_varkul: learning how to or what to do? And so

489
00:34:06,041 –> 00:34:10,916
jonathan_varkul: the when we tell people how to do something when they’re not capable of

490
00:34:11,083 –> 00:34:16,333
jonathan_varkul: doing it? In that moment the information just lost on them, and so the the

491
00:34:16,500 –> 00:34:22,500
jonathan_varkul: work is in coming to a relationship with data where they can actually see

492
00:34:22,583 –> 00:34:26,583
jonathan_varkul: it, because most of the time they’re not able to, and so a lot of the time.

493
00:34:27,125 –> 00:34:28,125
jonathan_varkul: I, I find Um

494
00:34:29,250 –> 00:34:33,000
jonathan_varkul: in conversations with people. they often come to a moment where they go.

495
00:34:33,375 –> 00:34:36,833
jonathan_varkul: Huh, people have been telling me this for years. Have you just gotten it

496
00:34:37,000 –> 00:34:40,750
jonathan_varkul: Now? It’s because finally they’re actually getting the data Because before

497
00:34:40,916 –> 00:34:45,541
jonathan_varkul: the information was very noisy and they couldn’t see it. So that’s really

498
00:34:45,875 –> 00:34:49,458
jonathan_varkul: the. The The essence of of what I do is help them see something that

499
00:34:49,541 –> 00:34:52,500
jonathan_varkul: they’re just. they’re just not able to see, given the relationship that

500
00:34:52,500 –> 00:34:53,708
jonathan_varkul: they have with the issue itself

501
00:34:55,833 –> 00:34:57,500
anthony_algmin: There’s a lot to unpack with that because

502
00:34:58,791 –> 00:35:03,291
anthony_algmin: people are inherently subjective, they are inherently emotional and nothing

503
00:35:03,583 –> 00:35:07,416
anthony_algmin: is more important to any individual but themselves right. like they. They

504
00:35:07,500 –> 00:35:12,458
anthony_algmin: are very tied to everything that is going on for them. Because that’s them

505
00:35:12,708 –> 00:35:18,958
anthony_algmin: right. And so it becomes very difficult to, without help get an objective

506
00:35:19,583 –> 00:35:23,333
anthony_algmin: perspective on it all. Um, and and really understand

507
00:35:24,458 –> 00:35:28,250
anthony_algmin: beyond the emotion beyond how it feels at that time, and

508
00:35:29,333 –> 00:35:33,666
anthony_algmin: realize in in in a greater context what what it is. And and I. I. I had this

509
00:35:33,833 –> 00:35:38,541
anthony_algmin: realization not too long ago where I’m like. there are years of my life

510
00:35:39,291 –> 00:35:44,250
anthony_algmin: where if you said what happened when you were thirty three, I would struggle

511
00:35:44,458 –> 00:35:47,750
anthony_algmin: to tell you what happened when I was thirty three years old. Now I could

512
00:35:47,916 –> 00:35:51,041
anthony_algmin: tell you with great details. some things. if I knew that that happened when

513
00:35:51,125 –> 00:35:54,000
anthony_algmin: I was thirty three years old. I could probably give you a bunch of of those

514
00:35:54,166 –> 00:35:58,000
anthony_algmin: details. But what? I? what? Why? That meant so much to me In understanding.

515
00:35:58,166 –> 00:36:03,750
anthony_algmin: This is like what can feel so big and so stressful in a given moment. You

516
00:36:03,916 –> 00:36:08,958
anthony_algmin: may forget an entire year of context without a you know bread

517
00:36:09,125 –> 00:36:14,250
anthony_algmin: crumbs to get you back into that moment, so relax and recognize that that

518
00:36:14,458 –> 00:36:18,958
anthony_algmin: story happens over a much larger period than how you are feeling today.

519
00:36:18,958 –> 00:36:19,958
anthony_algmin: Though

520
00:36:20,708 –> 00:36:22,083
anthony_algmin: that said, with

521
00:36:24,166 –> 00:36:29,750
anthony_algmin: the day to day grind, in some cases, can feel overwhelming. If you look at

522
00:36:29,833 –> 00:36:34,291
anthony_algmin: the progress that you make even over a month or two, you can make incredible

523
00:36:34,541 –> 00:36:38,875
anthony_algmin: strides even though every day feels kinda like it felt yesterday. And so

524
00:36:39,208 –> 00:36:44,083
anthony_algmin: that’s also a fascinating thing to think about. And I think that you having

525
00:36:44,458 –> 00:36:49,500
anthony_algmin: someone who can help play back these kinds of ways of thinking and using the

526
00:36:49,583 –> 00:36:53,750
anthony_algmin: techniques that I’m sure that you have to give people ways of of thinking

527
00:36:53,916 –> 00:36:56,958
anthony_algmin: about topics that are very familiar to them. It’s not like you’re going to

528
00:36:57,041 –> 00:37:00,541
anthony_algmin: tell them a new piece of data that they didn’t already have, But what you’re

529
00:37:00,708 –> 00:37:04,958
anthony_algmin: going to do is you’re going to remove some of the noise that normally is all

530
00:37:05,125 –> 00:37:09,833
anthony_algmin: that they focus on or much of what they see, and be able to dig into that

531
00:37:10,083 –> 00:37:11,291
anthony_algmin: next level of

532
00:37:11,916 –> 00:37:12,916
anthony_algmin: information

533
00:37:13,125 –> 00:37:17,500
anthony_algmin: underneath it all to to get to whatever they need to doe. And so that’s why

534
00:37:17,500 –> 00:37:20,250
anthony_algmin: I keep coming back to this next level and trying to understand how that

535
00:37:20,375 –> 00:37:23,500
anthony_algmin: pertains and even do it on purpose. That time it just kind of came out of my

536
00:37:23,500 –> 00:37:26,791
anthony_algmin: mouth and I’m like, but that’s that’s it right Like that’s exactly what what

537
00:37:26,875 –> 00:37:28,625
anthony_algmin: you end up doing to help these folks.

538
00:37:29,958 –> 00:37:35,958
jonathan_varkul: yeah, it’s um. It’s an interesting process because ▁ultimately. I don’t

539
00:37:36,041 –> 00:37:37,291
jonathan_varkul: have any answers for them.

540
00:37:38,583 –> 00:37:42,583
jonathan_varkul: The information’s all there already. that, or at least the the real

541
00:37:42,916 –> 00:37:45,958
jonathan_varkul: information in terms of the actual data that they need is all all there

542
00:37:46,125 –> 00:37:49,875
jonathan_varkul: already. and they’re kind of a little in the way, and the challenge

543
00:37:50,333 –> 00:37:52,833
jonathan_varkul: actually is in a helping them

544
00:37:54,125 –> 00:38:01,875
jonathan_varkul: find a way to open up to what’s actually here and I. In many cases, it’s

545
00:38:02,041 –> 00:38:03,041
jonathan_varkul: mostly about

546
00:38:04,041 –> 00:38:05,958
jonathan_varkul: Um, being able to be

547
00:38:08,333 –> 00:38:14,125
jonathan_varkul: almost biologically tolerant of the person that I’m with. I’ll explain what

548
00:38:14,125 –> 00:38:17,250
jonathan_varkul: I mean by that is typically when someone comes to us with a problem and

549
00:38:17,375 –> 00:38:21,958
jonathan_varkul: they’re concerned about it in some way, and this happens at subtle levels,

550
00:38:22,041 –> 00:38:25,000
jonathan_varkul: not at gross level, so they don’t have to be fllaing the arms about. They

551
00:38:25,166 –> 00:38:28,416
jonathan_varkul: just have to say to you know, this is a really big problem. It’s a really

552
00:38:28,583 –> 00:38:32,041
jonathan_varkul: difficultal thing. All of a sudden, our system starts to almost

553
00:38:32,291 –> 00:38:37,250
jonathan_varkul: sympathetically join in with theirs At some level. Now it works in the

554
00:38:37,291 –> 00:38:41,708
jonathan_varkul: reverse, so if I don’t sympathetically join in with them, but I’m really

555
00:38:42,333 –> 00:38:46,583
jonathan_varkul: with them, but not in the same way that they’re with themselves. What

556
00:38:46,750 –> 00:38:52,500
jonathan_varkul: happens is they can anchor into my presence with them in a way that then

557
00:38:52,666 –> 00:38:57,458
jonathan_varkul: makes them feel a lot safer with their issue. So it’s a really challenging

558
00:38:57,541 –> 00:39:00,125
jonathan_varkul: piece, because I don’t have the answers. I don’t know. it’s going to be

559
00:39:00,291 –> 00:39:02,333
jonathan_varkul: okay and yet biologically.

560
00:39:04,041 –> 00:39:09,541
jonathan_varkul: I’m operating in a way as if that is the case, And so then what happens is

561
00:39:09,625 –> 00:39:10,625
jonathan_varkul: they can

562
00:39:11,375 –> 00:39:16,666
jonathan_varkul: almost settle in and have someone there who can then intellectually work

563
00:39:16,916 –> 00:39:21,083
jonathan_varkul: through the issues logically. because that’s my my background. I can

564
00:39:21,166 –> 00:39:26,750
jonathan_varkul: totally do that, Um, but also be there in an emotionally validating kind of

565
00:39:26,916 –> 00:39:31,875
jonathan_varkul: way. Um, that allows them to feel really safe to to proceed to unpack

566
00:39:32,125 –> 00:39:35,625
jonathan_varkul: things and explore things. a people would say. Well, how’s that relevant

567
00:39:35,875 –> 00:39:40,041
jonathan_varkul: for? for a hard driving executive who’s a type a personality?

568
00:39:41,083 –> 00:39:44,666
jonathan_varkul: Why why would you need to make something safe for them when they have kind

569
00:39:44,833 –> 00:39:48,583
jonathan_varkul: of hardr driving? What people don’t realize is

570
00:39:49,625 –> 00:39:53,958
jonathan_varkul: that the thing that they want more than anything else is behind the door.

571
00:39:54,125 –> 00:39:57,291
jonathan_varkul: They fear the most at some level, or at the very least it’s where they’re

572
00:39:57,458 –> 00:40:01,458
jonathan_varkul: up against something, and for them to expand into the next level of where

573
00:40:01,625 –> 00:40:05,875
jonathan_varkul: they’re looking to go. They need someone one to be able to meet them where

574
00:40:06,041 –> 00:40:07,625
jonathan_varkul: they’re at fory, as opposed

575
00:40:07,708 –> 00:40:12,750
jonathan_varkul: to be a yes person or a um, or, or someone who iss going to be compliant or

576
00:40:12,750 –> 00:40:15,625
jonathan_varkul: someone who’s going to challenge them. But someone who’s just going to be

577
00:40:15,791 –> 00:40:17,250
jonathan_varkul: with them and really question

578
00:40:18,291 –> 00:40:22,500
jonathan_varkul: and understand what they’re going through because they’re really there with

579
00:40:22,666 –> 00:40:28,125
jonathan_varkul: them. Every step of the way is a very, um. It’s a very safe feeling, and

580
00:40:28,208 –> 00:40:33,875
jonathan_varkul: all of a sudden it gives people Um an opportunity to expand their um, their

581
00:40:34,125 –> 00:40:37,333
jonathan_varkul: les a little and see the information in a completely different different

582
00:40:37,333 –> 00:40:38,333
jonathan_varkul: way.

583
00:40:39,458 –> 00:40:40,458
anthony_algmin: Yeah,

584
00:40:41,125 –> 00:40:45,125
anthony_algmin: I, I think a lot about psychological safety as kind of one of those key

585
00:40:45,333 –> 00:40:50,000
anthony_algmin: things in building teams and and managing teams and organizations that’s

586
00:40:50,083 –> 00:40:52,291
anthony_algmin: really important to to have entertainment’s. One of the most important

587
00:40:52,541 –> 00:40:56,625
anthony_algmin: things to have as an employee to be productive is is that psychological

588
00:40:56,791 –> 00:41:01,500
anthony_algmin: safety, that knowledge that you can make a mistake and it can be okay and

589
00:41:01,750 –> 00:41:06,291
anthony_algmin: the people around you will will support you and and be able to um, you’ll be

590
00:41:06,375 –> 00:41:10,250
anthony_algmin: resilient with you, and I think too, as as I’ve gotten further in my career

591
00:41:10,375 –> 00:41:13,208
anthony_algmin: and had higher and higher level positions and and

592
00:41:14,458 –> 00:41:19,666
anthony_algmin: have colleagues in some, and, and even higher. It’s you realize like there’s

593
00:41:19,916 –> 00:41:23,833
anthony_algmin: no point on that ladder where somebody has it all figured out, and if they

594
00:41:23,916 –> 00:41:28,166
anthony_algmin: do, they really don’t. Uh, nobody has it all figured out, and the fears that

595
00:41:28,250 –> 00:41:32,083
anthony_algmin: you have don’t go away just because you’ve moved up the organizational

596
00:41:32,250 –> 00:41:37,666
anthony_algmin: hierarchy. Um, it? the stress can often increase because you want to be

597
00:41:37,750 –> 00:41:40,791
anthony_algmin: there to provide the psychological safety for your teams and the people

598
00:41:40,958 –> 00:41:44,791
anthony_algmin: underneath you. Sometimes it feels like there’s no one there to provide it

599
00:41:44,875 –> 00:41:48,708
anthony_algmin: for you, and so I could totally understand how c e o’s would be like I’m the

600
00:41:48,791 –> 00:41:54,791
anthony_algmin: one everyone relies on. yet I feel like I’m a paper tiger. And even though I

601
00:41:54,875 –> 00:41:58,541
anthony_algmin: have the big title and I have the big salary, And and but it there that

602
00:41:58,791 –> 00:42:03,583
anthony_algmin: thear is still that we are still all human. And and even though I think we

603
00:42:03,833 –> 00:42:05,333
anthony_algmin: have a tendency

604
00:42:05,916 –> 00:42:06,916
anthony_algmin: to

605
00:42:07,666 –> 00:42:12,291
anthony_algmin: kind of put people on pedestals as if they are something beyond human.

606
00:42:12,541 –> 00:42:15,916
anthony_algmin: whether it’s technology executives, I think Steve Jobs is a great example

607
00:42:16,083 –> 00:42:20,166
anthony_algmin: that he was. He was seen as almost beyond being just I a mortal. But at the

608
00:42:20,166 –> 00:42:23,750
anthony_algmin: end of the day he was just a person too. You know. And and that’s true of

609
00:42:23,916 –> 00:42:28,083
anthony_algmin: everyone, and so it’s It’s not unreasonable. I think for

610
00:42:29,416 –> 00:42:35,041
anthony_algmin: anyone to realize that it’s facing those fears. And and is as part of hu,

611
00:42:35,416 –> 00:42:38,375
anthony_algmin: part of the human condition right. This is something that we all have to

612
00:42:38,541 –> 00:42:41,666
anthony_algmin: know and explore. And just because outwardly we may seem to have it all

613
00:42:41,750 –> 00:42:46,291
anthony_algmin: figured out, I think on the inside, a lot of folks you know struggle with

614
00:42:46,375 –> 00:42:51,291
anthony_algmin: that and and don’t know what to do. So what I would ask you, because I’m

615
00:42:51,416 –> 00:42:55,583
anthony_algmin: sure not everyone out there will be able to hire you as a coach or hire a

616
00:42:55,750 –> 00:43:00,791
anthony_algmin: coach of of any kind. But are techniques Are are things that people can be

617
00:43:00,958 –> 00:43:05,666
anthony_algmin: doing on their own to start to. You know, at least pull it the thread of

618
00:43:05,750 –> 00:43:09,041
anthony_algmin: some of the things that we’ve talked about today, and and to start, Um,

619
00:43:09,500 –> 00:43:14,166
anthony_algmin: you’ll becoming more connected like you talked about earlier on, connected

620
00:43:14,291 –> 00:43:18,166
anthony_algmin: to yourself and your body, and and and you, your minded in what’s going on

621
00:43:18,291 –> 00:43:22,875
anthony_algmin: around you. In what you’ve done in your career to find themselves, you know,

622
00:43:23,041 –> 00:43:24,708
anthony_algmin: on a path to to a better place,

623
00:43:25,291 –> 00:43:29,166
jonathan_varkul: I say this, The first thing you can do. It’s an interesting practice is to

624
00:43:31,083 –> 00:43:34,208
jonathan_varkul: I, I’d call it um, becoming a little bit more aware of your own

625
00:43:35,375 –> 00:43:40,291
jonathan_varkul: system, your own body, and I’ll tell you why, Um, when you’re engaging on a

626
00:43:40,333 –> 00:43:45,375
jonathan_varkul: day to day basis in any, driving your car or grocery shopping, or just at

627
00:43:45,541 –> 00:43:49,083
jonathan_varkul: work, doing something, crunching numbers on a spreadsheet, working with a

628
00:43:49,083 –> 00:43:54,125
jonathan_varkul: team doesn’t really matter, and if you notice during that at some point in

629
00:43:54,208 –> 00:44:00,125
jonathan_varkul: time there is some agitation or some constriction or some tension in your

630
00:44:00,208 –> 00:44:04,500
jonathan_varkul: body, actually, even euphorian disassociation, but let’s just leave it as

631
00:44:04,583 –> 00:44:08,583
jonathan_varkul: agitation. Constriction, intention, If you just notices some agitation,

632
00:44:08,833 –> 00:44:12,416
jonathan_varkul: some constriction and some tension in your body, it’s pretty much a

633
00:44:12,583 –> 00:44:16,500
jonathan_varkul: guarantee that at that point in time, if you look around and you see

634
00:44:16,750 –> 00:44:20,208
jonathan_varkul: there’s no actual physical danger in this moment. In other words, there’s

635
00:44:20,333 –> 00:44:23,958
jonathan_varkul: no one coming at you with a gun or a knife, there is. there’s no lions or

636
00:44:24,041 –> 00:44:27,458
jonathan_varkul: tigers trying to run at you Like physical danger. In that moment there

637
00:44:27,541 –> 00:44:31,291
jonathan_varkul: isn’t any if you look around, and there is ▁zero of that. And and I’m

638
00:44:31,458 –> 00:44:35,458
jonathan_varkul: talking about, even if someone one is giving you a terminal diagnosis for

639
00:44:35,541 –> 00:44:39,000
jonathan_varkul: your own biology. that says you’re going to die in thirty days. That still,

640
00:44:39,166 –> 00:44:42,291
jonathan_varkul: in that moment it’s not a life threatening moment like there’s nothing

641
00:44:42,500 –> 00:44:45,458
jonathan_varkul: happening to you physically. So if you’re experiencing some form of

642
00:44:45,541 –> 00:44:49,166
jonathan_varkul: agitation constriction intention, and in this moment your life is not being

643
00:44:49,375 –> 00:44:54,583
jonathan_varkul: threatened, then at some level you have an erroneous perspective of reality

644
00:44:55,000 –> 00:44:58,833
jonathan_varkul: like at some level, and the reason is is because agitation, constriction

645
00:44:59,000 –> 00:45:02,291
jonathan_varkul: and tension are being produced by your sympathetic nervous system in

646
00:45:02,333 –> 00:45:07,958
jonathan_varkul: response to the idea that something physically is actually Um at you.

647
00:45:07,958 –> 00:45:11,000
jonathan_varkul: You’re at physical risk. Your life is physiically atrisk, and this can

648
00:45:11,083 –> 00:45:14,833
jonathan_varkul: happen in gross ways where you feel real constriction, When subtle ways you

649
00:45:14,833 –> 00:45:17,291
jonathan_varkul: can start to feel your hands a little tense. Um,

650
00:45:17,875 –> 00:45:21,708
jonathan_varkul: you’re feeling mine a little bit agitated. It doesn’t matter how much

651
00:45:21,958 –> 00:45:26,583
jonathan_varkul: agitated or how little if there is any. it’s an indication that there’s an

652
00:45:26,666 –> 00:45:30,666
jonathan_varkul: erroneous perception. So what’s really cool about this is all of a sudden.

653
00:45:31,083 –> 00:45:34,666
jonathan_varkul: If you can recognize that, the first thing it does is that creates an

654
00:45:34,833 –> 00:45:39,708
jonathan_varkul: opening to be able to look at what’s here through a different lens, it’s to

655
00:45:39,791 –> 00:45:44,208
jonathan_varkul: be out. Say well, At some level I have an erroneous perception of reality.

656
00:45:44,500 –> 00:45:49,250
jonathan_varkul: I don’t know what it is. I don’t know where the error is. I don’t know how

657
00:45:49,291 –> 00:45:55,291
jonathan_varkul: I’ mis perceiving it, but I am. I can just sit with that and actually relax

658
00:45:55,791 –> 00:45:59,458
jonathan_varkul: into reality right now, because my misperception is. At some level

659
00:45:59,708 –> 00:46:03,625
jonathan_varkul: something’s threatening and I have to say something quicker or ruminate on

660
00:46:03,625 –> 00:46:08,125
jonathan_varkul: the thing I’m ruminating on or respond in a way that’s typical how I always

661
00:46:08,291 –> 00:46:13,291
jonathan_varkul: respond. But if we don’t, and we just acknowledge that that slight opening

662
00:46:13,708 –> 00:46:17,875
jonathan_varkul: gives us a chance a little chance to see something we couldn’t have seen

663
00:46:18,208 –> 00:46:23,875
jonathan_varkul: before, and if we do and we engage with it, what that does is, it opens up

664
00:46:24,125 –> 00:46:27,541
jonathan_varkul: a path, though we wouldn’t have taken before, and then all of a sudden it

665
00:46:27,708 –> 00:46:31,791
jonathan_varkul: opens us up to something that we wouldn’t have gone down, And as we start

666
00:46:31,958 –> 00:46:36,833
jonathan_varkul: to go down, a whole new set of things start to unfold for us, and so that

667
00:46:37,083 –> 00:46:40,750
jonathan_varkul: starts to then give us confidence that we can play. In a way we never

668
00:46:40,916 –> 00:46:44,125
jonathan_varkul: played before, but the starting point is to recognize that there’s a

669
00:46:44,208 –> 00:46:48,916
jonathan_varkul: erroneous perception that’s taking place as a result of being in tune with

670
00:46:49,083 –> 00:46:53,250
jonathan_varkul: your body. That’s telling you, Hm. You know, we seem to think that when

671
00:46:53,375 –> 00:46:56,833
jonathan_varkul: we’re tense it’s an indication from our brain to double down on whatever it

672
00:46:56,916 –> 00:46:59,791
jonathan_varkul: is I’m thinking, and I’ve got a fight harder and work harder when the truth

673
00:46:59,875 –> 00:47:02,333
jonathan_varkul: is is actually the reverse. It’s a call from the body to say

674
00:47:02,500 –> 00:47:07,958
jonathan_varkul: wa wa wo actually stop. W. We think it’s actually a signal to say continue.

675
00:47:09,083 –> 00:47:12,833
jonathan_varkul: So that’s that’s the first thing that people can can start to do is become

676
00:47:12,916 –> 00:47:17,000
jonathan_varkul: more a little tuned in to incorporate more of their body or their biology

677
00:47:17,166 –> 00:47:20,833
jonathan_varkul: into the experience of what they are doing, because it has relevant

678
00:47:21,083 –> 00:47:22,291
jonathan_varkul: information to share with us.

679
00:47:24,083 –> 00:47:27,333
anthony_algmin: that’s that’s amazing. if I, I have never heard that before and I am going

680
00:47:27,500 –> 00:47:32,250
anthony_algmin: to start thinking about that myself. and yeah, I, that’s that’s fantastic.

681
00:47:32,458 –> 00:47:36,708
anthony_algmin: So Jonathan. we are super out of time. I. I’ve really enjoyed this

682
00:47:36,708 –> 00:47:41,291
anthony_algmin: conversations. A fascinating departure from our normal content on data

683
00:47:41,416 –> 00:47:44,708
anthony_algmin: leadership lessons. but I hope for all of you out there, it’s been a

684
00:47:44,791 –> 00:47:48,708
anthony_algmin: worthwhile one. and at least like so many of our our episodes, you knowll

685
00:47:48,875 –> 00:47:52,958
anthony_algmin: gets you thinking about something in a different way than maybe you thought

686
00:47:53,125 –> 00:47:56,375
anthony_algmin: about it before. and and I’d like to think that that uh, we were successful

687
00:47:56,541 –> 00:47:59,666
anthony_algmin: with that in this episode. So Jonathan again, thank you for for being on the

688
00:47:59,666 –> 00:48:00,666
anthony_algmin: show today,

689
00:48:00,750 –> 00:48:02,416
jonathan_varkul: Thanks, any thanks foring me.

690
00:48:02,875 –> 00:48:06,958
anthony_algmin: and you’ll find uh information and and links on how to contact Jonathan in

691
00:48:06,958 –> 00:48:10,250
anthony_algmin: the show Notes. And thank you all for for watching or listening today. Dive

692
00:48:10,375 –> 00:48:13,833
anthony_algmin: deeper with my book at DataLeadershipBook.com and use Promo code

693
00:48:13,916 –> 00:48:18,166
anthony_algmin: ALGMINDL at the DATAVERSITY Online Training center for twenty

694
00:48:18,291 –> 00:48:21,500
anthony_algmin: percent off your first purchase. Please remember to follow Data leadership

695
00:48:21,583 –> 00:48:24,958
anthony_algmin: lessons on Youtube or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoy the

696
00:48:24,958 –> 00:48:28,458
anthony_algmin: show, please ra and review and help others find us. stay safe during these

697
00:48:28,541 –> 00:48:30,541
anthony_algmin: unusual times and go make an impact!