This week we meet Larry Fisher, the CEO of Rise Interactive, a digital marketing agency in Chicago. We learn about the similarities between financial analysis and marketing analysis, and pragmatic tips for organizations looking to start doing digital marketing themselves!
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/PTh2Va-zI-I
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About Larry Fisher:
Larry is responsible for leading the strategic direction of Rise Interactive. With over 20 years of experience, his marketing expertise and roots in financial services have played a major role in the explosive growth of Rise as a data-driven agency.
Prior to CEO, Larry was instrumental in developing Rise’s vision as President where he was focused on guiding the revenue-driving departments of the organization such as Account Management, Client Service, Marketing, and Sales. Through his leadership and customer-centric approach, he has helped expand the list of distinguished clients such as Nicklaus Children’s Hospital, ULTA Beauty, Stanley Steemer, and Atkins Nutritionals.
Larry is a board member for the Michael Matters Foundation and Rise Interactive. He graduated from Syracuse University with a bachelor’s degree in Finance. In between travel soccer games and walking their family dog Miley, Larry enjoys spending time with his wife and three kids.
Rise Blog – Late Night with Larry: https://www.riseinteractive.com/blog
Episode Transcript:
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anthony_algmin: Conversation,
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larry_fisher: Sounds great,
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anthony_algmin: All right, So we are live. Things seem to be uploading, so that’s good.
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anthony_algmin: Come on there, go are it so here we go.
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anthony_algmin: Welcome to the data Leadership Lessons podcast. I’m your host. Anthony. ▁j.
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anthony_algmin: Algman Da is everywhere in our businesses and it takes leadership to make
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anthony_algmin: the most of it. We bring you the people stories and lessons to help you
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anthony_algmin: become a data leader. Our show is produced by Aldmundd Business media, where
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anthony_algmin: we make having your own video podcast as easy as joining a call and sending
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anthony_algmin: an email. The sage is yours. Visit Algmon Dot Com to learn more to today on
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anthony_algmin: data leadership lessons. We welcome, Larry Fisher, Larry is the C e O of
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anthony_algmin: Rise, Interactive, a fast paced digital marketing agency in Chicago, with
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anthony_algmin: over twenty years of experiences, marketing expertise and roots and
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anthony_algmin: financial services have played a major role in the explosive growth of Rise
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anthony_algmin: as a data driven agency. Larry. welcome to the show.
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larry_fisher: thanks so much. I appreciate you have me.
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anthony_algmin: So like we do with all our first time guessests, why don’t you let me try
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anthony_algmin: that again like we do with all our first time guess? please take a moment to
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anthony_algmin: tell the audience a bit more about your career before Ris Interactive and
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anthony_algmin: how it led you to doing what you do now
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larry_fisher: sounds great. So I spent the first part of my career in the financial services
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larry_fisher: world as a trader, hedge, fun manager, entrepreneur. And what we did. what I
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larry_fisher: specialized in was collecting data. analyzing that data in the financial
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larry_fisher: markets Figure was working, and then do more of it. And um, at a certain point
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larry_fisher: I,
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larry_fisher: we were looking to really diversify our revenue stream, and I came in touch
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larry_fisher: with
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larry_fisher: John Morris, who is the founder of Ris. and we started talking about ways in
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larry_fisher: which digital marketing could really affect our business.
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larry_fisher: Marketing was completely new to me, But the interesting part of the
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larry_fisher: conversation had with John was he was doing campaigns collecting data,
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larry_fisher: analyzing it, figuring out what worked, and did more of it for his clients. So
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larry_fisher: it was really the same skill sets that I had cultivated during my creating
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larry_fisher: trading career, but being used in a completely different industry, And that
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larry_fisher: was what really got me interested in switching from Uh, the financial services
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larry_fisher: world into the marketing world, Because there was this unique opportunity
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larry_fisher: time, I, and this was Um, you know, Um, two thousand Ten, where the
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larry_fisher: proliferation of data and social networks and platforms was just in its
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larry_fisher: infancy, So really a great time to see if we could use data in similar ways to
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larry_fisher: help clients manage their marketing budgets. In a similar way that we did to
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larry_fisher: managing dollars in the financial world,
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anthony_algmin: Th. That’s amazing to me because I, you know, I’ve had a background in
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anthony_algmin: financial, uh, services, and and the trading space in Chicago as well, and
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anthony_algmin: to make that leap into digital marketing is fascinating to me because I
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anthony_algmin: would’t see
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anthony_algmin: how the kinds of analysis are, the The kinds of
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anthony_algmin: analytics work that you would do would directly translate. Can you can you
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anthony_algmin: tell me a little bit more about what it was that you were? Um that you were
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anthony_algmin: seeing there? Like, how can you can you draw a comparable between the
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anthony_algmin: financial industry and the marketing in terms of the kinds of analytics work
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anthony_algmin: that you do? That’s fascinating.
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larry_fisher: Yp, So what we realized, it was more about the skill sets and the talent of
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larry_fisher: the people that we are hiring. And what we started to look for was anyone who
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larry_fisher: had an analytical background, So marketing firms traditionally didn’t hire
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larry_fisher: traders, hetched by managers, accountants, lawyers, Anyone who is trained with
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larry_fisher: a certain type of analytical bent, and what we found was within a year’s time,
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larry_fisher: would could teach them the marketing part. So we really started to focus on
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larry_fisher: almost exclusively, bring in this analys ability and skill set, because
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larry_fisher: essentially digital marketing is being a data minor, being able to collect all
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larry_fisher: sorts of data at scale and then make decisions using it. So, um, what we
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larry_fisher: found, and it was a big advantage for part of our success story, A riisee in
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larry_fisher: our rapid growth was we needed to recruit Um, different types of of
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larry_fisher: professionals Because there weren’t um, a ton of agencies like us around that
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larry_fisher: we could just hire from. So we really had to come up with creative W. Ways to
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larry_fisher: find the right talent and then to put them in a position with the right
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larry_fisher: training and access to data that others just didn’t have, And that combination
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larry_fisher: really allowed us to to deliver great results for our clients with a different
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larry_fisher: perspective. With that we
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anthony_algmin: That makes.
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larry_fisher: creed. Oh, sorry, Go ahead.
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anthony_algmin: I’m sorry I. I didn’t mean to cut you off. Uh, The, that’s amazing because
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anthony_algmin: as you talk about that, they kind of clicked in the back of my head. I’
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anthony_algmin: said, when we’re doing data work and organizations, the marketing people are
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anthony_algmin: the ones that I want to get involved on the data teams because they have
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anthony_algmin: this understanding of imperfect data. They understand data driven
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anthony_algmin: activities. They are constantly looking at those things, and it never really
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anthony_algmin: occurred to me that that could work in the opposite direction where the
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anthony_algmin: people that are good at doing data stuff would also be very good at
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anthony_algmin: marketing because they’re good at the data stuff, And that’s that makes a
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anthony_algmin: ton of sense. that. To hear you put it that way, so that makes than you.
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larry_fisher: we found that it was easier to find a really analytical person than teach them
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larry_fisher: the marketing than to find someone who didn’t have that skill said, and do the
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larry_fisher: reverse. So it’s just something that clicked and we really um, think back to
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larry_fisher: two thousand eight, two thousand, Ten. when the financial markets were kind of
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larry_fisher: up in Atiisy, we were able to recruit from banks and brokerage houses. and
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larry_fisher: because those folks were losing their jobs and we were um so fortunate that we
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larry_fisher: were able to um, bring them on, and and many of them have gone on to long
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larry_fisher: careers within the marketing world and have become experts at digital
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larry_fisher: analytics And it’s been. It’s been one of the Um things I’m most proud of in
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larry_fisher: my a career rising, and Um, helping some of those folks who Um had a certain
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larry_fisher: skill set that they weren’t sure how to use. Apply it in a completely
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larry_fisher: different way.
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anthony_algmin: that’s really cool. That’s really cool. Can you tell me a little bit more
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anthony_algmin: about the the origin story of Rise, and kind of how it’s evolved and enemy?
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anthony_algmin: Now you’ve gone for being in the financial industry, and granted you’re
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anthony_algmin: you’re probably pretty good at doing the analytics with being a hedge fund
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anthony_algmin: manager and things like that. but now you’re the Ceo of this digital
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anthony_algmin: marketing agency. Tell us about how Rise has evolved and and kind of what
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anthony_algmin: you’re what you’re doing as a business today.
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larry_fisher: Y. We always had this idea that we wanted to help Um. Our clients make smarter
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larry_fisher: marketing decisions using data and Um. it wasn’t about Um.
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larry_fisher: just having the data, but figuring out what questions that we could answer
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larry_fisher: using the data And how could we answer them faster than anyone else. So that
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larry_fisher: was kind of. Um. When I joined Rise, that was the premise of what we were
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larry_fisher: trying to build, and we had this idea that as the Um. the digital marketking
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larry_fisher: landscape started to evolve, Because if you go back, Um, you know ten years
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larry_fisher: ago, Um. Google was in its infancy. Facebook wasn’t didn’t have any an ad
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larry_fisher: platform, so over time we had to have discussions about should we be focused
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larry_fisher: in these new channels with these new platforms, and each time we did there was
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larry_fisher: a whole another sclew of data that came along with Um. the type of marketing.
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larry_fisher: So we had this challenge of how do we take all this data? Make sense of it in
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larry_fisher: channel, but also how do we help our clients make decisions of which channels
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larry_fisher: working better, Which platform is working better, which creatives working
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larry_fisher: better across all these different platforms. So we really set out to find a
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larry_fisher: way to provide that data in an easy format that we could use to answer these
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larry_fisher: questions at a speed that no one else really could, And that’s was the the
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larry_fisher: origin of what we set out to do. Starting back in our, in our, Um. Their early
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larry_fisher: days we focused on search marketing, where we had data coming from Um, Yahoo
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larry_fisher: and and Google. To now we have data coming in from search, social programtic,
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larry_fisher: Uh, connected Tv,
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larry_fisher: amongst many other channelsail, and so on, So the amount of data that we have
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larry_fisher: um to to figure out what’s working, and how do we use that in real time,
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larry_fisher: became
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anthony_algmin: Mhm,
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larry_fisher: a bigger and bigger challenge, and still is a big. big challenge for many
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larry_fisher: marketers out.
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anthony_algmin: well, yeah, I. I just think about the complexity of these platforms now and
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anthony_algmin: the amount of data that’s going around like to, even though they’ve tried to
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anthony_algmin: make some of these tools available and accessible for even small business
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anthony_algmin: owners like myself. It’s um. it’s overwhelming. The the options are so
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anthony_algmin: overwhelming that navigating it in any kind of strategic way as a small
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anthony_algmin: business is is pretty much impossible. So I imagine you need a certain
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anthony_algmin: amount of sophistication to create a strategy around that Because any
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anthony_algmin: organizations going to have limited funding to put towards marketing and
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anthony_algmin: sales growth and things like that, Um, and marketing just feels like you. A
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anthony_algmin: lot of times. you’re just dumping money into avoid, and you have no idea
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anthony_algmin: whether or not it’s useful. How do how do help organizations get past what
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anthony_algmin: would be the default Like that?
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larry_fisher: So you’re right. it is overwhelming. There’s so many different technologies
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larry_fisher: that have Um been developed over the last number of years, and marketers have
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larry_fisher: to make sense of it. They have to understand what technologies, what
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larry_fisher: platforms, what strategies can really help drive their business outcomes,
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larry_fisher: business growth. That’s what it’s really all about. So what we’ve really
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larry_fisher: focused on is simplifying that conversation by taking all the data from all
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larry_fisher: these dispate, systemsing, them into technology, which we call connects
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larry_fisher: connectes that central location across all channels. And we’ve credated a way
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larry_fisher: to normalize the data so it’s all on one data table, which allows us to
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larry_fisher: analyze and compare like tactics across all channels so that we can really dig
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larry_fisher: deep into deciding which Um strategies with tactics which is creative.
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larry_fisher: Whatever Um. Elements of the campaigns are are working best so that we can
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larry_fisher: shift dollars to the best performing tactics, the best performing campaigns in
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larry_fisher: real time, very much like what I did in the financial world, and we created
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larry_fisher: this Um. this strategy which we call interactive investment management, which
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larry_fisher: is managing your portfolio, Your marketking portfolio very much like a
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larry_fisher: financial portfolio. We arere constantly reassessing and constantly shifting
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larry_fisher: money to the best performing placements, just like you would want to do in
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larry_fisher: your in a stock portfolio, Say where you want to have their most money in your
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larry_fisher: best performing Um. securities before you start to expand onto other
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larry_fisher: securities that may not be as working as well. So this philosophy of using
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larry_fisher: data and then realizing how complicated it was to make that all work pushed us
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larry_fisher: into creating this technology that simplified that and helps our clients.
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larry_fisher: Really, Um, use data in different ways and it’s we’re We’re at a really unique
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larry_fisher: moment in time because
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larry_fisher: the macro environment is changing for all these platforms. The rules are
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larry_fisher: changing the way we do.
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anthony_algmin: He
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larry_fisher: Things are changing very much like when I stopped trading, there was an
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larry_fisher: underlying change going out in the marketplace where Um. Electronic trading
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larry_fisher: went to a whole anotherth level, where the winners were the ones who had the
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larry_fisher: fastest Um connections, the best access to data, the biggest processing power
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larry_fisher: versus being able to just make smart investment decisions, And that underlying
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larry_fisher: change was very disruptive Um for everyone involved in the trading world, And
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larry_fisher: the the parallel is the changes that are going on in in the marketing world
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larry_fisher: right now with Um changes to third party cookies and how they’re being used,
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larry_fisher: Um the competitive landscape within these platforms and each of them creating
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larry_fisher: bigger silos and walld gardens. To try and keep marketers to see spending
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larry_fisher: their budgets within their platform and not Um within other platforms, and the
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larry_fisher: unique moment in time is, I believe that Um. these changes under the surface
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larry_fisher: are going to cause a lot of change in how we Um can successfully market our
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larry_fisher: our businesses, and Um. The the trick is being able to understand that
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larry_fisher: ecosystem, and to make it even more complicated, we’re going to a more real
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larry_fisher: time world Marketing is has been a little bit behind in using real time data.
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larry_fisher: but we will be going to mill seconds in our Um. In our need to analyze and
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larry_fisher: make decisions very much like the financial systems went to, as I asscribed
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larry_fisher: before, so it’s a dynamic, ever changing world. but right now, specifically,
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larry_fisher: um, I see big, big opportunities for those who understand this and have spent
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larry_fisher: and invested in infrastructure that allows them to collect and analyze data
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larry_fisher: faster than anyone else.
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anthony_algmin: that you blew my mind with this parallel between the financial and trading
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anthony_algmin: world and marketing? Because it is the same thing in a lot of ways, Because
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anthony_algmin: you can’t control whether the stock is going to go up or down.
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anthony_algmin: You know you can’t control whether that marketing message is going to do
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anthony_algmin: exactly what you wanted to do for any individual or what have you’? That
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anthony_algmin: same amount of uncertainty and that same amount of lack of control. Where
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anthony_algmin: now? the? the parallels are obvious That that’s so interesting to think
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anthony_algmin: about. I don’t think I’ve ever really considered it quite from that lens.
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anthony_algmin: And you could see if you take like you. Just did you extend that analogy
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anthony_algmin: where we saw in the traing, where it did become Like who has the least
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anthony_algmin: latency and the most processing power you’re going to win in the traing,
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anthony_algmin: game? Marketing is moving in that same direction and it’s fascinating to
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anthony_algmin: see. So
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anthony_algmin: it as a as a small business, or I put the entrepreneur hat on again. That’s
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anthony_algmin: really depressing, because I feel like I don’t know how I can compete to get
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anthony_algmin: attention to a small business with small funding. Um, you know, and and a a
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anthony_algmin: niche market. Most likely. what? what? What do the small business owners
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anthony_algmin: then do if they can’t become? You know Ase marketers like that or or who?
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anthony_algmin: Maybe a better question is who works with an organization like Ri, or
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anthony_algmin: active? And and how do you serve that market? And then what about those that
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anthony_algmin: you wouldn’t serve directly?
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larry_fisher: Yeah, so over the years we’ve been fortunate to really, um,
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larry_fisher: uh, ride our wave of growth and and our sophistication to work with some of
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larry_fisher: the biggest and best companies in the world. So we’re so fortunate to work
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larry_fisher: with companies like ▁ta Cosmetics and Kaiser Permanent Day and Cardinal Health
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larry_fisher: and Temper Cilly, To name a few, these are big um, big M. multinational brands
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larry_fisher: that have ton of data tunnel products that need help doing this sort of stuff.
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larry_fisher: I think the the piece of advice that I would give is you really need to be
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larry_fisher: focused. You really need to um, understand um, who you’re marketing to. You
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larry_fisher: have to understand what your different changes are. and then when you start to
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larry_fisher: use these digital platforms or any type of marketing campaign, understand the
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larry_fisher: data that’s available
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larry_fisher: for you and with you to to decide if things are working And that’s the great
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larry_fisher: part about digital market, is there’? So much data even for the small
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larry_fisher: businesses. If you’re doing this on a small scale, you should be able to
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larry_fisher: understand which keywor is working better, or Um. you know which display ad or
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larry_fisher: email based on some simple k, p. I that all of the platforms give you. I think
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larry_fisher: the complexity comes when you start to really run multi channel multi platform
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larry_fisher: multi messaging campaigns. Um, not to mention, if you’re looking at different
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larry_fisher: G os and you have different budgets and all sorts of complexity that gets
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larry_fisher: piled on top. And that’s exactly what we have tried to do is to simplify that
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larry_fisher: process with first our approach that I described earlier, and then second with
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larry_fisher: the technology that helps us make sense of this in a way that allows us to
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larry_fisher: make decisions in real time to figure out how best, um to you know, grow our
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larry_fisher: businesses, but the focus for a small business, It’s really a focus.
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larry_fisher: Many small businesses look to start with marketing and they think they need to
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larry_fisher: go and spend in multiple places at the same time, but their budgets don’t
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larry_fisher: support that, So
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anthony_algmin: Mhm.
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larry_fisher: you really you know, find something that works and maximize the most out of
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larry_fisher: that before you start to go on to anything else, Because most likely, Um,
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larry_fisher: trying to get scale out of the best performing tactic is going to lead to
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larry_fisher: better results before you think you need to do everything, And that’s kind of
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larry_fisher: our philosophy. As itioned earlier, this interactive investment management is
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larry_fisher: spend the most money in the thing that’s working first. And if you find the
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larry_fisher: thing that’s working best
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larry_fisher: and y, your budget can’t is isn’t big enough to scale that whole tactic. Well,
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larry_fisher: don’t do anything else. Just keep pounding that one idea.
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larry_fisher: and and then hopefully by the success allows you to have a bigger budget,
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larry_fisher: Allows you to expand to other placements or other ideas.
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anthony_algmin: I think that that makes a lot of sense. dable a little bit. Try to figure
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anthony_algmin: out something that works and then double down on the thing that’s working to
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anthony_algmin: the. point where you run out of budget or earth, it stops working and you
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larry_fisher: If if you run the mathematical equation around that process, I have yet to
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anthony_algmin: need to do something else.
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larry_fisher: find something that makes it you know obsolete, and it’s something that Um,
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larry_fisher: I’ve said for years is like is I’m I’m waiting and and keenly waiting. Because
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larry_fisher: of my experience, as were things, stop working to see something that works
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larry_fisher: better. And I, we’ve yet. we’ve yet to see that. so I’m I’m really proud of
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larry_fisher: our team, and Um, the work that they do to drive performance for so many great
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larry_fisher: clients.
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anthony_algmin: So how does how does the creative side of marketing overlay? This is, Do you
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anthony_algmin: do like the the creative side that it ris as well, Or is that something that
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anthony_algmin: you do the creative in one place, and then you figure out your channel
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anthony_algmin: strategy separately. How does how does that offer together?
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larry_fisher: That’s a really good question. So we do do some creative, but taking a step
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larry_fisher: higher than I, I’ve kind of. I’ve wro. Um, really thought a lot about what it
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larry_fisher: takes to be successful in the future And and there’s four things. Four areas
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larry_fisher: that I think marketers need to really focus on. The first is fueling your
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larry_fisher: brand engine. Right, you need to have a great brand with an enough content to
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larry_fisher: share out in all these different platforms to so that people know about you
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larry_fisher: and that you can drive your business, and Um, that’s the full game. It from
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larry_fisher: creating a a Um search ad to a display banner to a T V commercial, you need to
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larry_fisher: be able to fill your brand right. and because of the changes in the
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larry_fisher: marketplace, the need for more and more content continues to grow. So having a
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larry_fisher: strategy that allows you to do that at scale is really important. The next
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larry_fisher: thing you need to be able to do is really um, future proof, your audience
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larry_fisher: strategy and a lot of these platforms have targeting in audiences that you can
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larry_fisher: preset and get your ads in front of. But W, like I said earlier, with Um, the
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larry_fisher: rules changing and the importance of first party data, meaning the data that
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larry_fisher: you control within your company. Um, you need to have a really good strategy
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larry_fisher: of how you’re going to make sure that you when you have that content and
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larry_fisher: you’re feelueling your brand engine. That it goes in front of the people that
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larry_fisher: are going to be interested in your service or product. Um, the next element is
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larry_fisher: really understanding what I talked about with this real time data
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larry_fisher: infrastructure, so you can collect all this data and be able to act on it and
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larry_fisher: it takes an investment to be able to do that. And then the last part is you
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larry_fisher: need to be able to prove it. You need to make sure that you can show your c, f
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larry_fisher: O, or your c, e O. That this stuff is working and that it’s really driving
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larry_fisher: business impact. So when you take those four elements to together, I really
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larry_fisher: believe focusing on that allows you to have of the insight to understand where
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larry_fisher: the marketplace is going, and without going too much into the weeds, Um,
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larry_fisher: everything kind of layers into those four areas. And if you can have a
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larry_fisher: strategy that that really is focused on those. Uh, you’ll be focused in the
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larry_fisher: right areas to have great success.
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anthony_algmin: That’s greatce. Um. do you have any
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anthony_algmin: rules of thumb in terms of how much budget or how much energy? Uh
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anthony_algmin: organzation should put towards these kinds of efforts?
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anthony_algmin: Does it vary by industry or what? have you? Im just trying to think of the
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anthony_algmin: people that are out there running businesses that are like. Yeah, probably
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anthony_algmin: should be doing more than I am, but I don’t know what that amount is and
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anthony_algmin: I’ve got other work to do. We busy already.
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anthony_algmin: What? what rules of fun can you give to folk on?
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larry_fisher: Yeah, we always talk about that. It starts with your goals and your budget.
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larry_fisher: You really have to understand what you’re trying to achieve and how much money
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larry_fisher: you have to spend, and then it really becomes a math equation. You figure out
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larry_fisher: what your average order value is or your Um. and then you figure out what your
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larry_fisher: conversion rate is, and you find out what your costs are from from from your
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larry_fisher: media, and then that spits out into a cost per conversion, a return on
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larry_fisher: investment, Um. Some people talk of return on ads, spend, um cost per lead. If
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larry_fisher: you’re more of a a service, orient business, that’s driving leads and that set
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larry_fisher: of revenue it really starts with. Understand that equation. And this is how
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larry_fisher: this is what we need to do in order to achieve success. This is how much money
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larry_fisher: we can spend, and many times that conversation leads you well. Based on that
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larry_fisher: information, we don’t have enough money to even make this math equation yield
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larry_fisher: the returns that we’re expecting. So then we have to go back to the drawing
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larry_fisher: board and start to say. Okay, well, what changes do I make? Can I increase my
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larry_fisher: conversion rate, which then allows me to get there And what activity do I need
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larry_fisher: to do to do that? or Um, do I need to increase my average order value by
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larry_fisher: bundling products, or or T, focusing on higher marchin, higher price point
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larry_fisher: products. So there’s a whole slew of conversations that really come from
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larry_fisher: understanding your goals and your budget, and and understand the math around.
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larry_fisher: Will the plan that we’re putting in place mathematically allow us to be
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larry_fisher: successful and that to
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anthony_algmin: M.
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larry_fisher: me is always the starting place to have these conversations? and and many
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larry_fisher: times people don’t know what their goals or budgets are, and that’s totally
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larry_fisher: fine. But the conversations about understanding that lead you to these great
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larry_fisher: conversations of. Are we you know in the right area? Are we doing the right
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larry_fisher: activity? Do we need to raise more money? Do we need to shift budgets from
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larry_fisher: other places in the business to fuel the growth and Um. having those
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larry_fisher: conversations to me is a lot of fun and really helps businesses get to where
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larry_fisher: they want to go?
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anthony_algmin: Yeah, that that makes sense. And and I imagine that you have to become
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anthony_algmin: pretty astute at helping people navigate all of these questions because you
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anthony_algmin: know the answer may be clear of. like, Yes, we, we. We want to have a dayta
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anthony_algmin: driven marketing strategy. But there’s so much
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anthony_algmin: in between where I am today and that happening. I don’t. I don’t know where
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anthony_algmin: to go and that that’s where that consultative side of of your organization
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anthony_algmin: would have to be. Um, you know pretty good as well. It’s not just crunching
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anthony_algmin: numbers. it’s helping guiding you know, these businesses to a place of of
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anthony_algmin: additional sophistication And I think it comes with. you know, it comes with
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anthony_algmin: growth like we, as we mature as organizations, and as we grow as
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anthony_algmin: organizations, new challenges present themselves that you the previous year
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anthony_algmin: weren’t relevant. But now it’s It’s one more, uh, level,
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anthony_algmin: one, One question that that came up as you were talking about. That is there
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anthony_algmin: a difference or is there something that we should be thinking about in terms
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anthony_algmin: of you marketing for a brand or an organization level versus what that brand
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anthony_algmin: or organization are selling? So should I be thinking about first getting
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anthony_algmin: people to know about my overall brand, or should I say, Hey,
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larry_fisher: Yeah,
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anthony_algmin: I’ve got Wdget Abc that I want to go sell in the marketplace,
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anthony_algmin: Which should I do first, or it?
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larry_fisher: you know that conversation about goals is really important. It’s okay to have
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larry_fisher: multiple goals. You might have a branding goal that says I want to get this
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larry_fisher: much awareness or reach as far as people understanding your company, But we
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larry_fisher: also want to sell this much product at this price point with this amount of
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larry_fisher: profitability, So that conversation about goals really starts with. Yeah, Most
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larry_fisher: companies do have multiple goals. Most companies have to think about it and
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larry_fisher: provide the right allocation of resources, time for budgets to make sure you
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larry_fisher: can hit those goals, So that initial conversation of really understanding what
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larry_fisher: you’re trying to achieve and making sure that your strategic plan allows you
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larry_fisher: to be successful is is really important.
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larry_fisher: but it’s totally. it’s tot fine to have a branding goal and a revenue goal.
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larry_fisher: You know, because if that’s the strategies that you know, you people who know
364
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larry_fisher: your brand love your product. But there’s a ton of people who don’t know your
365
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larry_fisher: brand yet, so how do we do? both? How do we sell as many as we can today? But
366
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larry_fisher: also try and increase the amount of people who’ve never heard about us, And
367
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larry_fisher: then it’s about increasing customer lifetime value? How much money do you have
368
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larry_fisher: to spend to acquire a customer and how much money will they? Um? How much
369
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larry_fisher: profitability does each customer provide to the business again? It comes back
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larry_fisher: to that, Um, that measuring between what’s most important, as far as your goal
371
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larry_fisher: setting, how much you can afford to spend, how much you can, um, you know
372
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larry_fisher: spend to acquire new Er, and how much you can spend to acquire the right type
373
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larry_fisher: of customer. That’s going to have the biggest long term
374
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larry_fisher: impact your business. I think many times in marketing we’ been pushed to being
375
00:26:13,440 –> 00:26:19,840
larry_fisher: so short term focused that it’s changing the decision making that we’re making
376
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larry_fisher: because we need to show results todays. How do you build a brand? How do you
377
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larry_fisher: invest over the long run? How do you have a longer time horizon? I think
378
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larry_fisher: really important to think about
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anthony_algmin: well and I, I would say that that short term mindset tends to permeate into
380
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anthony_algmin: the leadership of our organizations as well. It’s not just marketing, but
381
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anthony_algmin: it’s how we’re going about running our businesses and it’s it’s always
382
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anthony_algmin: fascinating to me to see how how organizations evolve and they, as they
383
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anthony_algmin: grow. It’s like you, You have some success. You scale it up, you continue to
384
00:26:51,505 –> 00:26:55,025
anthony_algmin: grow, and then you reach this point where you decide Well, we’ve succeeded
385
00:26:55,185 –> 00:26:59,425
anthony_algmin: in doing all this stuff. Let’s change everything that made us good, and
386
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anthony_algmin: completely changed that value proposition for our customers. and then we
387
00:27:02,865 –> 00:27:06,145
anthony_algmin: wonder why they end up out of business five years later, And it’s like that
388
00:27:06,385 –> 00:27:10,305
anthony_algmin: strategic side. I keep coming back to that that that thought around. Hey, if
389
00:27:10,385 –> 00:27:15,585
anthony_algmin: it works, do more of it and keep expanding there as opposed to trying to
390
00:27:15,745 –> 00:27:20,625
anthony_algmin: find something else that you know is is less likely to work. You’re you’re
391
00:27:20,785 –> 00:27:24,705
anthony_algmin: better off having that focus and I think that that applies not just in a
392
00:27:24,785 –> 00:27:28,705
anthony_algmin: marketing sense, but I think it applies kind of broadly strategically as we
393
00:27:28,785 –> 00:27:33,665
anthony_algmin: run our businesses day and day out. I think we get. We get too encumbered by
394
00:27:33,745 –> 00:27:37,825
anthony_algmin: these shiny objects a lot of the time and we lose our focus in a number of
395
00:27:37,805 –> 00:27:38,805
anthony_algmin: different areas.
396
00:27:39,360 –> 00:27:44,240
larry_fisher: every single time in my career and I’ run many businesses where my businesses
397
00:27:44,400 –> 00:27:48,640
larry_fisher: have struggled. It always goes back to we got away from the basics of what
398
00:27:48,720 –> 00:27:54,080
larry_fisher: made us good. So so many times I’m focusing we can’t forget about the basics
399
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larry_fisher: you know, in in our agency business, we make it really simple. We need to win
400
00:27:58,880 –> 00:28:02,560
larry_fisher: new business. We need to grow that business. We need to renew that business,
401
00:28:02,880 –> 00:28:06,960
larry_fisher: and we need to innovate. And when we get away from thinking about how to we do
402
00:28:07,040 –> 00:28:10,640
larry_fisher: those four things we inevitably struggle. and then when we try and figure out
403
00:28:10,720 –> 00:28:15,520
larry_fisher: why we’re struggling off, we forgot about. you know, renewing the business, We
404
00:28:15,680 –> 00:28:19,280
larry_fisher: forgot about how important our customers are. Let’s go back to remembering
405
00:28:19,440 –> 00:28:23,600
larry_fisher: that. What are we going to do to regage? And those are the lessons I think you
406
00:28:23,680 –> 00:28:26,560
larry_fisher: learn with experience of being an entrepreneur. Running a business
407
00:28:27,600 –> 00:28:33,280
larry_fisher: really is some. A handful of basic things that make you successful. and when
408
00:28:33,360 –> 00:28:35,680
larry_fisher: you forget about them, you usually don’t do as well.
409
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anthony_algmin: Yeah, I think that’s that’s sage advice. And and I think about it from you
410
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anthony_algmin: know, putting the entrepreneur head on again, and I know we have a lot of
411
00:28:44,385 –> 00:28:48,465
anthony_algmin: entrepreneurs. Uh that, listen to the show. You know, I think about earliest
412
00:28:48,865 –> 00:28:52,945
anthony_algmin: stage, right, You grow through word of mouth. You’ve get something out
413
00:28:53,025 –> 00:28:57,185
anthony_algmin: there. You kind of you get some initial successes, Um. but then you reach
414
00:28:57,425 –> 00:29:03,185
anthony_algmin: this point where that network driven growth is not enough to sustain your
415
00:29:03,345 –> 00:29:06,865
anthony_algmin: growth. Pro, you know prospects, Uh, even further, and that’s when you need.
416
00:29:07,105 –> 00:29:10,145
anthony_algmin: Um. If you haven’t already, you need to be doing marketing. you need to be
417
00:29:10,145 –> 00:29:13,585
anthony_algmin: doing. How do I reach a new community of people beyond just that word of
418
00:29:13,585 –> 00:29:15,265
anthony_algmin: mouth that got us to where we are
419
00:29:16,305 –> 00:29:19,985
anthony_algmin: as one does that, and obviously each business is going to be different at
420
00:29:20,065 –> 00:29:22,545
anthony_algmin: the right budgets, the right goals and and, and some of those other things
421
00:29:22,625 –> 00:29:26,305
anthony_algmin: that you’ve talked about, You know all that makes sense. One thing that that
422
00:29:26,705 –> 00:29:30,945
anthony_algmin: I’m curious your thoughts on is what kind of time horizon should I as an
423
00:29:31,025 –> 00:29:34,545
anthony_algmin: entrepreneur be thinking about? If I’m starting to get serious about
424
00:29:34,405 –> 00:29:35,405
anthony_algmin: marketing,
425
00:29:36,145 –> 00:29:41,425
anthony_algmin: What kind of time frame should I expect? For you know, my first ▁x amount of
426
00:29:41,505 –> 00:29:45,105
anthony_algmin: dollars to start to come back to me in sales, and I’m sure that there is a
427
00:29:45,185 –> 00:29:49,585
anthony_algmin: sales cycle component to that, but like I want to be able to see in the data
428
00:29:50,065 –> 00:29:54,225
anthony_algmin: results, and it may not be the sales cycle completing, But how quickly do
429
00:29:54,305 –> 00:29:58,785
anthony_algmin: you see Like how W. Maybe the right question here is is how do you learn
430
00:29:59,185 –> 00:30:02,945
anthony_algmin: what is effective? Like How much time do you give each of those choices that
431
00:30:03,025 –> 00:30:06,785
anthony_algmin: you are trying to find What is that effective channel for my organation? How
432
00:30:06,945 –> 00:30:10,305
anthony_algmin: do you know when do you know what? What are those nuggets of wisdom that you
433
00:30:10,385 –> 00:30:12,865
anthony_algmin: get to say? Hey, we’re onto something here. Let’s double down on that.
434
00:30:13,200 –> 00:30:16,160
larry_fisher: Yeah, what you said’s really important is you have to understand your sales
435
00:30:16,320 –> 00:30:20,320
larry_fisher: cycle, because if you have a long sales cycle and you expect to be able to see
436
00:30:20,480 –> 00:30:24,480
larry_fisher: what’s working in in months and your sales cycles years, there’s a mismatch,
437
00:30:24,640 –> 00:30:27,840
larry_fisher: So you really have to have a strategia that allows things to work when you
438
00:30:28,000 –> 00:30:31,440
larry_fisher: bring it down to like a transactional purchase or a transactional type
439
00:30:31,680 –> 00:30:37,280
larry_fisher: strategy. It usually takes you know three months at least to get enough data
440
00:30:37,440 –> 00:30:42,240
larry_fisher: where you can have statistical significance to see what’s working. That’s also
441
00:30:42,480 –> 00:30:45,520
larry_fisher: taking into consideration how much you’re spending. So if you have a small
442
00:30:45,600 –> 00:30:49,440
larry_fisher: budget and you’re kind of putting your you know toes in the water, it’s going
443
00:30:49,520 –> 00:30:53,200
larry_fisher: to take a little bit longer for you to have that mass size of datas, that you
444
00:30:53,280 –> 00:30:56,960
larry_fisher: can with confidence make decisions if you have a huge budget and you’re
445
00:30:57,040 –> 00:31:00,720
larry_fisher: getting a ton of data coming through. It’s easier to make those decisions a
446
00:31:00,720 –> 00:31:04,720
larry_fisher: little bit quicker, but I’ve also really tried to focus on. you know, if you
447
00:31:04,880 –> 00:31:09,760
larry_fisher: think about the the Um life cycle of a C. M. O is getting shorter and and
448
00:31:09,920 –> 00:31:14,960
larry_fisher: shorter at companies, and it’s causing people to have shorter time horizons,
449
00:31:15,440 –> 00:31:19,120
larry_fisher: and and letting things breathe and work. I think the best marketers are those
450
00:31:19,280 –> 00:31:23,280
larry_fisher: really who understand that and have put a plan in place to let things work.
451
00:31:23,600 –> 00:31:27,360
larry_fisher: Let things not work. You have to, you know every, not every tactic or strgual
452
00:31:27,600 –> 00:31:31,840
larry_fisher: work, but if you can figure out which ones are working and then addd and then
453
00:31:32,080 –> 00:31:36,080
larry_fisher: cut off the ones that aren’t working, you can really start to to feel your
454
00:31:36,160 –> 00:31:37,200
larry_fisher: growth in a bigger way,
455
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anthony_algmin: Yeah, and I imagine too that it’s there are.
456
00:31:43,585 –> 00:31:47,265
anthony_algmin: Maybe prox is not the right word, but there are different metrics that you
457
00:31:47,345 –> 00:31:50,465
anthony_algmin: can use to see evidence that things are trending in the right direction. You
458
00:31:50,545 –> 00:31:54,465
anthony_algmin: could look at web traffic. Did we see from this marketing channel Because
459
00:31:54,705 –> 00:31:58,385
anthony_algmin: the date is so rich, you can start to say Hey. we’re driving an extra ten
460
00:31:58,465 –> 00:32:02,305
anthony_algmin: percent of web traffic. Because of this K, amp, it may not have led to sales
461
00:32:02,465 –> 00:32:06,385
anthony_algmin: yet because our salesle. Our sales cycle is six months or two years, or
462
00:32:06,465 –> 00:32:10,385
anthony_algmin: whatever it is, but we’re seeing enough traffic and the phone is ringing
463
00:32:10,545 –> 00:32:13,985
anthony_algmin: more. or we’re getting more chatter. Uh, more engagement on our social
464
00:32:14,225 –> 00:32:17,425
anthony_algmin: media. Or what have you? There’s got to be some things that you can start to
465
00:32:17,505 –> 00:32:20,865
anthony_algmin: point to to say hey there’. There’s some signs that there’s you know.
466
00:32:20,945 –> 00:32:23,985
anthony_algmin: there’s some smoke. We haven’t seen the fire yet, but we’ we’re seeing some
467
00:32:24,145 –> 00:32:27,665
anthony_algmin: smoke. Um. and so I imagine that because of the richness of data we, we’re
468
00:32:27,745 –> 00:32:31,185
anthony_algmin: able to start seeing some of those things probably pretty quickly when when
469
00:32:31,285 –> 00:32:32,285
anthony_algmin: campaigns go up.
470
00:32:32,880 –> 00:32:36,240
larry_fisher: most absolutely, and you start to have conversations about some of the softer
471
00:32:36,400 –> 00:32:41,200
larry_fisher: K. P. Ies, like how much would you pay for someone to sign up for your email
472
00:32:41,440 –> 00:32:45,840
larry_fisher: newsletter? What’s the value of someone doing that? So let’s just say it’s a
473
00:32:45,840 –> 00:32:49,040
larry_fisher: dollar. You’re willing to spend a dollar for every person to do that Well. Now
474
00:32:49,120 –> 00:32:54,240
larry_fisher: you can, you can start to ask yourself. Well, you know what marketing tactics
475
00:32:54,320 –> 00:32:58,640
larry_fisher: can I do That yield someone to sign up from an email newsletter where I can
476
00:32:58,720 –> 00:33:03,440
larry_fisher: spend a dollar. So you start to assign values across a visit to your website
477
00:33:03,680 –> 00:33:08,480
larry_fisher: to a newsletter. sign up to a sale and a bunch of other k. P. I. that would be
478
00:33:08,720 –> 00:33:12,080
larry_fisher: appropriate for your business, and you start to watch and you start to
479
00:33:12,320 –> 00:33:17,440
larry_fisher: understand. Okay today it’s five dollars per newsletter. Sign up. Okay, how do
480
00:33:17,520 –> 00:33:22,000
larry_fisher: I get down down to four? Are there things that I can do strategies to to
481
00:33:22,160 –> 00:33:26,960
larry_fisher: optimize against that and make it Um more efficient so that I can spend more
482
00:33:27,120 –> 00:33:31,840
larry_fisher: money across. You know other, you know to to drive more Uh consumers to our
483
00:33:32,000 –> 00:33:37,200
larry_fisher: site And it’s this com, this continual process of of understanding the cost
484
00:33:37,520 –> 00:33:41,440
larry_fisher: per whatever you’re looking at, And then how do you make it better? How do you
485
00:33:41,600 –> 00:33:46,240
larry_fisher: how you optimize to drive efficiency and in scale, And it’s uh, That’s a
486
00:33:46,320 –> 00:33:49,200
larry_fisher: process that never really ends. You’re always trying to figure out how do I
487
00:33:49,360 –> 00:33:51,120
larry_fisher: scale and how do I do it more efficientally,
488
00:33:53,025 –> 00:33:58,705
anthony_algmin: Yeah, and and so as I think about it from like a a services. Um know point
489
00:33:58,865 –> 00:34:02,465
anthony_algmin: of view, for a lot of the audience there is is running a services business,
490
00:34:02,625 –> 00:34:06,705
anthony_algmin: whether it be consulting or or are just independent consultant. Or what have
491
00:34:06,765 –> 00:34:07,765
anthony_algmin: you you?
492
00:34:09,505 –> 00:34:14,145
anthony_algmin: Where might they start? Like? what? What kinds of things are a good first
493
00:34:14,545 –> 00:34:20,465
anthony_algmin: place to start putting those dollars to try things out. And and to do you
494
00:34:20,465 –> 00:34:24,305
anthony_algmin: know maybe they want to grow. Uh, I think a new. you know, an E newsletter
495
00:34:24,385 –> 00:34:28,465
anthony_algmin: is is a great place that a lot of Um. you know, even very small businesses.
496
00:34:28,705 –> 00:34:32,705
anthony_algmin: Are you know, investing in and putting together and trying to get the word
497
00:34:32,945 –> 00:34:36,225
anthony_algmin: out. Where? where should they start or how do? how do they get going on
498
00:34:36,305 –> 00:34:41,265
anthony_algmin: trying something? Um, you know, even even at the at the most basic level
499
00:34:41,760 –> 00:34:45,360
larry_fisher: So there’s some really great um, free tools out there, especially like in
500
00:34:45,520 –> 00:34:49,760
larry_fisher: Google. You can go to Google and enter in some of the keywords or or
501
00:34:50,080 –> 00:34:53,920
larry_fisher: categories that you that your business works in, and you can get charts to
502
00:34:53,920 –> 00:34:59,280
larry_fisher: show you the trends of traffic to those keywors, So if there’s words that you
503
00:34:59,280 –> 00:35:02,720
larry_fisher: can see an upward trend, there’s a lot of interest. Um, there’s probably a
504
00:35:02,720 –> 00:35:06,720
larry_fisher: better chance for if you get involved with from a pay perspective of paying
505
00:35:06,880 –> 00:35:11,280
larry_fisher: for those keyworards or building out content on your website that you show up
506
00:35:11,440 –> 00:35:14,960
larry_fisher: organically for those areas where there’s lots of traffic. That’s a really
507
00:35:15,120 –> 00:35:19,120
larry_fisher: good place to start. Is to understand where the demand is and how do you tap
508
00:35:19,280 –> 00:35:22,400
larry_fisher: that demand? Like? how do you make sure that when someone’s raising their hand
509
00:35:22,560 –> 00:35:26,320
larry_fisher: for your service that you’re showing up, So from a digital marking perspective
510
00:35:26,480 –> 00:35:31,840
larry_fisher: there’s lots of data out there that can start to point to trends or cost of.
511
00:35:32,480 –> 00:35:38,080
larry_fisher: See cost per clickes or different, all different, um, Um, sorts of k, P. I
512
00:35:38,320 –> 00:35:42,640
larry_fisher: that tell you competitor information. Um, there’s tools that will show you
513
00:35:43,040 –> 00:35:47,760
larry_fisher: which competitors are spending or are showing up for certain keywords And I
514
00:35:47,840 –> 00:35:51,760
larry_fisher: can bet you that if someone is paying money to Google to show up for that
515
00:35:51,840 –> 00:35:54,800
larry_fisher: keyword, it’s because they’re making money. So, if you see that your
516
00:35:54,880 –> 00:35:58,800
larry_fisher: competitors are doing it, it’s also a great place to start because no one’s
517
00:35:58,960 –> 00:36:02,800
larry_fisher: doing this because it’s it’s not making the money. So getting that competitive
518
00:36:02,960 –> 00:36:07,280
larry_fisher: intelligence and seeing what others are doing is also a great way to kind of
519
00:36:07,440 –> 00:36:11,520
larry_fisher: put your strategy together. because there’s a lot of really rich information
520
00:36:12,560 –> 00:36:15,760
larry_fisher: that you can clean and figure out when you see what others are doing.
521
00:36:18,225 –> 00:36:21,425
anthony_algmin: it, it lets you shortcut some of that trial in Er. right, Like, If you know,
522
00:36:21,505 –> 00:36:24,465
anthony_algmin: Hey, this is a starting point and maybe we want to differentiate beyond
523
00:36:24,545 –> 00:36:28,305
anthony_algmin: that. but it. it’s kind of like trying to time the market. You’re probably
524
00:36:28,625 –> 00:36:32,145
anthony_algmin: not going to out. think all of the best minds in the financial industry to
525
00:36:32,225 –> 00:36:36,705
anthony_algmin: time that market better. You may be better off taking a by and hold
526
00:36:37,025 –> 00:36:41,105
anthony_algmin: strategy. and um, you know, continuing to allow your investments to to gain
527
00:36:41,345 –> 00:36:45,025
anthony_algmin: over time. Don’t try to outdo the people that do this professionally.
528
00:36:45,425 –> 00:36:50,145
anthony_algmin: Especially in this world where you know doing marketing is becoming ever
529
00:36:50,465 –> 00:36:55,985
anthony_algmin: more a technology and data driven game. We shouldn’t think we can out think
530
00:36:56,145 –> 00:37:01,425
anthony_algmin: it. Let’s go and do some things that are proven methods, while putting our
531
00:37:01,505 –> 00:37:05,185
anthony_algmin: own unique spin on it. And maybe it’s not a channel strategy. That is our
532
00:37:05,265 –> 00:37:09,665
anthony_algmin: unique spin. It’s the copy. It’s the content, the creative side that allows
533
00:37:09,745 –> 00:37:12,785
anthony_algmin: us to differentiate ourselves using the same channels that have proven
534
00:37:13,025 –> 00:37:16,145
anthony_algmin: effective for those others that probably have bigger budgets at us if we’re
535
00:37:16,085 –> 00:37:17,085
anthony_algmin: just getting started.
536
00:37:17,360 –> 00:37:20,880
larry_fisher: Yeah, there’s great information that you can glean from if you do a search
537
00:37:21,040 –> 00:37:24,560
larry_fisher: for. Let’s just say you’re selling auto insurance and you do a search for auto
538
00:37:24,720 –> 00:37:28,560
larry_fisher: insurance, And you see that a couple of different companies. one person has
539
00:37:29,040 –> 00:37:32,960
larry_fisher: um, an offer that they provide for four ninety nine a month, and then another
540
00:37:33,200 –> 00:37:37,680
larry_fisher: is for three ninety nine. Well, you have to wonder if your ad copy is going to
541
00:37:37,680 –> 00:37:40,880
larry_fisher: be is going to be received well when you’re much more expensive than your
542
00:37:41,040 –> 00:37:44,480
larry_fisher: competitor. So even just trying to pick up on these things and changing ad
543
00:37:44,640 –> 00:37:48,160
larry_fisher: copy to make sure that yours has the most differentiated than most
544
00:37:48,400 –> 00:37:52,000
larry_fisher: interesting, So that when consumers do these searches, you’re showing up in a
545
00:37:52,080 –> 00:37:57,120
larry_fisher: way that is more interesting than your competitors. Um, so there’s lots of
546
00:37:57,520 –> 00:38:00,160
larry_fisher: lots of this information that you can. This is all just from doing little
547
00:38:00,320 –> 00:38:03,520
larry_fisher: legwork and digging in and really paying attention to the competitive
548
00:38:03,680 –> 00:38:08,240
larry_fisher: landscape. I think impetive intelligence is so important. and because you
549
00:38:08,320 –> 00:38:11,840
larry_fisher: could see all this within digital, if you’re paying attention, you can really
550
00:38:12,080 –> 00:38:15,520
larry_fisher: get some great ideas of how you can differentiate your story and your
551
00:38:15,500 –> 00:38:16,500
larry_fisher: messaging.
552
00:38:17,585 –> 00:38:19,665
anthony_algmin: So I feel like in this space
553
00:38:20,785 –> 00:38:26,465
anthony_algmin: the digital marketing agencies are like the pros, because you guys do this
554
00:38:26,705 –> 00:38:31,425
anthony_algmin: as a function in your business, and yet you probably also need to do this
555
00:38:31,585 –> 00:38:35,185
anthony_algmin: for yourselves. And obviously I’m not going to ask you to divulge any trade
556
00:38:35,265 –> 00:38:39,025
anthony_algmin: secrets or anything like that, But how do you guys go about doing it for
557
00:38:39,105 –> 00:38:44,225
anthony_algmin: yous? I assume you’ doing this, your your practitioners for yourselves, as
558
00:38:44,305 –> 00:38:48,465
anthony_algmin: well. What are the things that you you find Are are are good places to put
559
00:38:48,705 –> 00:38:50,945
anthony_algmin: some of your Um marketing energies into.
560
00:38:51,120 –> 00:38:54,640
larry_fisher: Yeah, very much. so we have a pretty robust account based marketing strategy.
561
00:38:55,040 –> 00:38:58,960
larry_fisher: It really starts with understanding who our target audiences are. We had to
562
00:38:59,120 –> 00:39:03,920
larry_fisher: narrow things down so that we recognize we weren’t trying to be. Um, every be
563
00:39:04,160 –> 00:39:08,560
larry_fisher: everything to everyone. Once we came up with our target audiences, we started
564
00:39:08,640 –> 00:39:12,960
larry_fisher: to make sure we understand our core differentiors of our business. That when
565
00:39:13,040 –> 00:39:17,120
larry_fisher: we start to market to people to very clear why they should engage with us, and
566
00:39:17,200 –> 00:39:21,760
larry_fisher: then from there it’s a constant barage through email through paid media
567
00:39:22,320 –> 00:39:27,280
larry_fisher: through content through podcast Like this, getting the word out to making sure
568
00:39:27,360 –> 00:39:32,080
larry_fisher: that we’re just not the best kept secret, and we have a multifacted approach,
569
00:39:32,880 –> 00:39:37,200
larry_fisher: and the data that we get from all these different channels allows us to make
570
00:39:37,440 –> 00:39:40,720
larry_fisher: decisions, just like I was talking about. How do we allocate and shift dollars
571
00:39:40,960 –> 00:39:45,120
larry_fisher: to the best performing? Uh, the best performing channels to make sure that we
572
00:39:45,200 –> 00:39:49,280
larry_fisher: can reach and exceed our goals? and um, Yeah, it’s a. It’s a lot of fun when
573
00:39:49,360 –> 00:39:55,200
larry_fisher: you start to see Um, a an account that you’ve been targeting for two years and
574
00:39:55,360 –> 00:39:59,040
larry_fisher: you’ve been showing them content and getting in front of them and trying to
575
00:39:59,280 –> 00:40:04,400
larry_fisher: show them. Then they call out of the blue and they’re asking for your help. I
576
00:40:04,480 –> 00:40:08,080
larry_fisher: mean, it’s so gratifying is it doesn’t? It does take time. These things’s a
577
00:40:08,160 –> 00:40:11,920
larry_fisher: nurturing. It’s you know, just because we’re marketing to someone doesn’t mean
578
00:40:12,000 –> 00:40:15,680
larry_fisher: they’re in the market for a new agency at that moment in time. so it’s really
579
00:40:16,000 –> 00:40:19,600
larry_fisher: about uh, making sure that when they are ready for new agency that we’re in
580
00:40:19,600 –> 00:40:23,920
larry_fisher: the consideration set. And if um, we are in the consideration set, we’re
581
00:40:24,080 –> 00:40:28,480
larry_fisher: hopeful that our approach in the way, and our great team of really smart
582
00:40:28,720 –> 00:40:32,960
larry_fisher: people analical people, Um, would be a great asset for that company, but it
583
00:40:33,040 –> 00:40:37,680
larry_fisher: does take time. Um. And like I said earlier, we try to practice what we preach
584
00:40:37,840 –> 00:40:42,480
larry_fisher: of being patient of letting things work and having the right data allows you
585
00:40:42,880 –> 00:40:46,960
larry_fisher: to make the right decisions, especially when it’s slower. It’s not working.
586
00:40:47,520 –> 00:40:50,960
larry_fisher: That’s where you really need to dig in, and having a dad allows you to to
587
00:40:51,120 –> 00:40:54,880
larry_fisher: stick with it. And I’ve seen time and time again how that plays out Greatd
588
00:40:54,580 –> 00:40:55,580
larry_fisher: for.
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00:40:57,905 –> 00:41:02,305
anthony_algmin: Yeah, and and I think a lot about you know marketing and sales, and I think
590
00:41:02,385 –> 00:41:05,825
anthony_algmin: any entrepreneur does. They probably think about it more than they spend
591
00:41:06,065 –> 00:41:10,065
anthony_algmin: dollars on it. but I, I think you, you make a really good point around. you
592
00:41:10,045 –> 00:41:11,045
anthony_algmin: know. being
593
00:41:12,305 –> 00:41:16,465
anthony_algmin: you know, the best cap secret is not the way to build a business. And and
594
00:41:16,785 –> 00:41:21,265
anthony_algmin: you want to get out in in front of folks, And, and you want to be top of
595
00:41:21,345 –> 00:41:24,305
anthony_algmin: mind when they are in the market. You’re never going to sell something to a
596
00:41:24,305 –> 00:41:28,625
anthony_algmin: person who doesn’t want to buy something right. And and so just being in
597
00:41:28,785 –> 00:41:33,265
anthony_algmin: that sphere of awareness is is clearly an important part of ▁ultimately.
598
00:41:33,425 –> 00:41:38,225
anthony_algmin: driving more sales. Is there an amount like? Can you do too much marketing?
599
00:41:38,385 –> 00:41:44,545
anthony_algmin: Can you get too annoying about it or too? Um, you become too aware or or too
600
00:41:44,545 –> 00:41:48,385
anthony_algmin: obnoxious for people? Or is that something that is like baked into people’s
601
00:41:48,545 –> 00:41:52,385
anthony_algmin: brains? That isn’t really a thing like you’re You’re so far away from that.
602
00:41:52,545 –> 00:41:59,025
anthony_algmin: Most likely that nobody is is going to worry about you being too uh to in in
603
00:41:59,105 –> 00:42:00,145
anthony_algmin: their face. What? what is the
604
00:42:01,360 –> 00:42:04,320
larry_fisher: Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely creepy factors. I mean, I think we’ve all,
605
00:42:04,960 –> 00:42:09,120
larry_fisher: um, you know, either talked about something or type or search for something.
606
00:42:09,360 –> 00:42:12,560
larry_fisher: Then you’re getting a constant barrage of companies who are trying to sell
607
00:42:12,720 –> 00:42:16,720
larry_fisher: your stuff, and it almost feels like intrusive. The real focus is about
608
00:42:16,880 –> 00:42:21,200
larry_fisher: providing a value exchange. If you’re providing value to your consumers
609
00:42:21,840 –> 00:42:25,840
larry_fisher: through providing them content, teaching them something, some sort of coupon
610
00:42:25,940 –> 00:42:26,940
larry_fisher: or offer
611
00:42:27,840 –> 00:42:32,800
larry_fisher: Um. Consumers typically feel good about that and understanding what value
612
00:42:33,040 –> 00:42:37,440
larry_fisher: you’re bringing and making sure that it’s it’s makes it so that it’s
613
00:42:37,600 –> 00:42:42,240
larry_fisher: worthwhile that when Um, a consumer is marketed to that they feel good about
614
00:42:42,320 –> 00:42:47,280
larry_fisher: it. But you can definitely um, be too in someone’s face. You can definitely be
615
00:42:47,360 –> 00:42:51,600
larry_fisher: there too often, and there’s frequency caps and and strategies that most
616
00:42:51,760 –> 00:42:55,600
larry_fisher: marketers put in place to make sure that they’re not being seen, especially
617
00:42:55,760 –> 00:43:00,000
larry_fisher: digitally over and over again, because there’s definitely a point of
618
00:43:00,080 –> 00:43:02,240
larry_fisher: diminishing returns. Um, but
619
00:43:01,845 –> 00:43:02,845
anthony_algmin: M?
620
00:43:02,400 –> 00:43:08,560
larry_fisher: there’s also Um data that says you need ▁x amount of touch points before
621
00:43:08,640 –> 00:43:12,240
larry_fisher: someone would consider being a customer. So it’s definitely a balancing act.
622
00:43:12,480 –> 00:43:16,480
larry_fisher: And if you’re focused on providing value to your cons, consumers and you
623
00:43:16,640 –> 00:43:19,840
larry_fisher: really care about them, you can find the sweet spot to make sure they feel
624
00:43:20,000 –> 00:43:21,600
larry_fisher: good about being marketed to.
625
00:43:23,105 –> 00:43:26,305
anthony_algmin: Yeah? I think that’s I think. That’s great advice, and I think about like
626
00:43:26,465 –> 00:43:30,145
anthony_algmin: social media right now still feels like. Despite all of the advances it
627
00:43:30,305 –> 00:43:35,025
anthony_algmin: still sometimes feels like it’s in its infancy because you’ll see that same
628
00:43:35,265 –> 00:43:39,425
anthony_algmin: advertisement scrolling on your Facebook feed over and over again. You’ like
629
00:43:39,905 –> 00:43:43,985
anthony_algmin: stop already. I don’t care about this thing, but you continue to show it to
630
00:43:44,065 –> 00:43:47,105
anthony_algmin: me. and and I have to imagine we’re going to get uh smarter and smarter
631
00:43:47,185 –> 00:43:49,665
anthony_algmin: about that, although I have also had that this experience. I just I was
632
00:43:49,665 –> 00:43:53,105
anthony_algmin: talking to my wife about this yesterday. It ever have that experience where
633
00:43:53,185 –> 00:43:55,585
anthony_algmin: you’re like you’re on your phone. You’re scrolling through social media or
634
00:43:55,665 –> 00:43:59,665
anthony_algmin: whatever, and accidentally you hit a link to something and then it pops up
635
00:44:00,545 –> 00:44:03,585
anthony_algmin: advertisement, and you go to that page. And and then you realize for the
636
00:44:03,745 –> 00:44:06,945
anthony_algmin: next however long of time they’re going to think you’re super interested in
637
00:44:06,945 –> 00:44:10,865
anthony_algmin: this be cause you had this errant click. And that’s what’s going to happen.
638
00:44:11,425 –> 00:44:17,185
anthony_algmin: And and that still seems to be like where you are, Um, a little bit early.
639
00:44:18,945 –> 00:44:23,185
anthony_algmin: Despite all of the the um. the advances, some things seem awfully simple.
640
00:44:23,425 –> 00:44:27,905
anthony_algmin: still, in terms of the way some of these things get actually, Um, manifested
641
00:44:28,065 –> 00:44:31,985
anthony_algmin: in in the various algorithms and and that stuff. Do you see that or you have
642
00:44:32,065 –> 00:44:35,585
anthony_algmin: any anecdotes on and from your perspective on on weird things like that that
643
00:44:35,645 –> 00:44:36,645
anthony_algmin: can happen some sometimes.
644
00:44:37,680 –> 00:44:41,200
larry_fisher: Yeah, I mean that happens all the time, just as consumers. we all know that
645
00:44:41,360 –> 00:44:45,840
larry_fisher: that happens. or sometimes you see ads too frequently, or there’s a brand
646
00:44:46,060 –> 00:44:47,060
larry_fisher: that’s just in your face.
647
00:44:48,560 –> 00:44:52,080
larry_fisher: I think that’s where people have the option to um,
648
00:44:53,280 –> 00:44:58,640
larry_fisher: you know, take your name off a list or to opt out, you know, and I think a lot
649
00:44:58,720 –> 00:45:02,640
larry_fisher: of the privacy discussions that are going on now are trying to give consumers
650
00:45:02,800 –> 00:45:07,760
larry_fisher: options to control that in in an easier way, so that if you don’t want to be
651
00:45:07,920 –> 00:45:13,520
larry_fisher: part of some sort of campaign that you have the capability to um, opt out, and
652
00:45:14,080 –> 00:45:18,640
larry_fisher: Um brands need to to pay attention to that, because there’ all sorts of finds
653
00:45:19,200 –> 00:45:23,360
larry_fisher: and laws that are trying to protect consumers from. Those things happening.
654
00:45:24,305 –> 00:45:27,345
anthony_algmin: and I want to put words in your mouth, but I I suspect that you’re probably
655
00:45:27,585 –> 00:45:31,025
anthony_algmin: not opposed. Like the marketers, You probably think they would be the ones
656
00:45:31,185 –> 00:45:35,345
anthony_algmin: opposed to having some of these controls. But to you, I, I imagine you want
657
00:45:35,425 –> 00:45:39,105
anthony_algmin: to be as effective as possible, and people who don’t want the to hear that
658
00:45:39,185 –> 00:45:42,145
anthony_algmin: message are not going to be the people you want to hit with that message
659
00:45:42,305 –> 00:45:46,705
anthony_algmin: Right And so there’s there’s probably some benefit even from the marketer’s
660
00:45:46,865 –> 00:45:51,265
anthony_algmin: perspective of having some of these controls and and and all of that in
661
00:45:51,345 –> 00:45:54,305
anthony_algmin: place to to be more efficient in what you do as well.
662
00:45:54,560 –> 00:45:58,480
larry_fisher: Yeah, I guess said, if you provide a value exchange, it usually works out
663
00:45:58,300 –> 00:45:59,300
larry_fisher: pretty well.
664
00:46:00,080 –> 00:46:03,520
larry_fisher: If you’re not and you become, You know that annoying brand. Then
665
00:46:04,560 –> 00:46:06,960
larry_fisher: you know you, you’ll see it in the number as you’ll see it in your results.
666
00:46:07,040 –> 00:46:12,160
larry_fisher: But those brands that you know really provide value have a cause. some sort of
667
00:46:12,320 –> 00:46:16,400
larry_fisher: social um. promotion that they can show that they’ you know, aligning with
668
00:46:16,960 –> 00:46:20,800
larry_fisher: your your values and morals like they do really well. you know they do really
669
00:46:20,580 –> 00:46:21,580
larry_fisher: well.
670
00:46:22,305 –> 00:46:25,425
anthony_algmin: Yeah, well, and I think you know we’re We’re kind of out of time. and I
671
00:46:25,425 –> 00:46:28,625
anthony_algmin: think that’s a good note to close on that that whole value exchange. and
672
00:46:28,705 –> 00:46:34,225
anthony_algmin: recognizing that you know the marketing side of of what organizations need
673
00:46:34,385 –> 00:46:38,225
anthony_algmin: to do is an important part of of building successful organizations. And and
674
00:46:38,305 –> 00:46:42,625
anthony_algmin: your company at Ad. Ris Interactive is here to help those organizations that
675
00:46:42,865 –> 00:46:45,905
anthony_algmin: are not going to be able to do this on their own, and I think that’s that’s
676
00:46:45,985 –> 00:46:49,345
anthony_algmin: more and more of us, given all the the complexities, So I want to thank you
677
00:46:49,425 –> 00:46:52,305
anthony_algmin: for for being on the show today and sharing this wisdom. I think it’s going
678
00:46:52,305 –> 00:46:54,065
anthony_algmin: to be really useful for for everyone out there
679
00:46:54,400 –> 00:46:58,800
larry_fisher: Yeah, it’s my pleasure. I really appreciate um. The opportunity to share, and,
680
00:46:59,040 –> 00:47:02,720
larry_fisher: um, if anyone, um, feels that we could be of a bigger help, just let us know.
681
00:47:04,385 –> 00:47:08,465
anthony_algmin: outstanding, and thank you all for joining us today. And and you will find
682
00:47:08,545 –> 00:47:12,065
anthony_algmin: more information and links in the show notes. Dive deeper with my book at
683
00:47:12,145 –> 00:47:16,145
anthony_algmin: Data Leadership Book Dot Com and use Promocode Algmondel at the Diversity
684
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anthony_algmin: Online Trading Center for twenty percent off your first purchase, and if you
685
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686
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anthony_algmin: Algon Dot Com to learn how we make having your own video podcast as easy as
687
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anthony_algmin: joining a call and sending an email. See,
688
00:47:29,985 –> 00:47:32,945
anthony_algmin: stay safe during these unusual times and go make an impact.
